Jump to content

Welcome to Nissan GT-R Heritage
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Short Block Build - new OEM block or used core?

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1
JohnnyTSi

JohnnyTSi

    Stock

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 38 posts
  • Joined 16-March 19
  • LocationEverett, WA
I'm at the limits of a FBO build and want to jump to the next level. My goals are modest with 800-1000 (ok 1200) wheel on ethanol.
 
Trying to decide on buying a New bare OEM block to start OR buy a used core and run it through my Machinist and do a dry sleeve.
 
of Note: I'm an accomplished mechanic and have all of the tools and expertise to check all measurements associated with a hi boost engine build!
 
I guess the real question is: Given a new block and a balanced rotating assembly, how 'ready' is a new block for assembly? If I have to get it adjusted at the machine shop, I may as well save a few bucks and start with a used core! 
 
 
Thanks,
John-
 
 

Beautiful Blue FBO 2013 R35 GTR

655/638tq Daily Driven street thrasher!

 

Cobb 3" Intakes
SBD Race Intercooler with TiAL BOVs

Cobb catted Down Pipes
Cobb mid pipe modded with a Borla resonator
MAP Muffled 3.5" cat back
ASNU 330 pumps
id1300x2 injectors
Visconti Flex Fuel kit
Omni 4bar Map sensor kit
Cobb Fuel Pressure sensor kit
Torque Solution Maf Block-off Plates


#2
franzcars

franzcars

    Stock

  • OEM Member
  • Pip
  • 41 posts
  • Joined 16-March 13

For that power level, there's no reason to sleeve or go with a new block. A set of drop in Manley pistons and rods will be good for 13-1400whp. I'd reuse your block and have the machine shop balance the new rotating assembly, then just put it back together 


2013 Premium Deep Blue Pearl with 285/35 PSS's front, 18"NT05R's rear, SIR USM's, HKS Upgraded Actuators, TiTek 90mm Downpipes, AAM Resonated Midpipe, GotBoost intakes, GotBoost SD kit, Visconti Flex Fuel, Bosch 2200's, Fore tripple pump with with twin 485's DIY hardwired, Ecutek Etune by Bill@SprayItRacing
Appearance: TSW Nurburing rear, Diode Dynamics Tail as Turn with quad backup lights, always on front DRLs, Diode Dynamics LED City, Trunk, Map and License Plate lights
 
530AWHP with a Cobb OTS stage 1 only
555AWHP with MP/tune from Linney
Best ET 10.52@128 with midpipe/tune/NT05R's
 
Gone but never forgotten, Memorial Day 2017

New GTR
2009 SS Jack's Built ETS 3582R. From Motown to The Lou, and we're proud

#3
JohnnyTSi

JohnnyTSi

    Stock

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 38 posts
  • Joined 16-March 19
  • LocationEverett, WA

For that power level, there's no reason to sleeve or go with a new block. A set of drop in Manley pistons and rods will be good for 13-1400whp. I'd reuse your block and have the machine shop balance the new rotating assembly, then just put it back together 

 

Understood - however I want to:

  1. keep downtime to a minimum
  2. have a spare block for fallback if I break something!

I'm going to do one of the listed options, just trying to decide which one! I think the cost for either way is about the same, as long as I don't have to send the new OEM block in for machine work!

 

Thanks,

John-


Beautiful Blue FBO 2013 R35 GTR

655/638tq Daily Driven street thrasher!

 

Cobb 3" Intakes
SBD Race Intercooler with TiAL BOVs

Cobb catted Down Pipes
Cobb mid pipe modded with a Borla resonator
MAP Muffled 3.5" cat back
ASNU 330 pumps
id1300x2 injectors
Visconti Flex Fuel kit
Omni 4bar Map sensor kit
Cobb Fuel Pressure sensor kit
Torque Solution Maf Block-off Plates


#4
franzcars

franzcars

    Stock

  • OEM Member
  • Pip
  • 41 posts
  • Joined 16-March 13

If you're worried about downtime, you could have one of the vendors on this site build you one, then return your core after you swap them


2013 Premium Deep Blue Pearl with 285/35 PSS's front, 18"NT05R's rear, SIR USM's, HKS Upgraded Actuators, TiTek 90mm Downpipes, AAM Resonated Midpipe, GotBoost intakes, GotBoost SD kit, Visconti Flex Fuel, Bosch 2200's, Fore tripple pump with with twin 485's DIY hardwired, Ecutek Etune by Bill@SprayItRacing
Appearance: TSW Nurburing rear, Diode Dynamics Tail as Turn with quad backup lights, always on front DRLs, Diode Dynamics LED City, Trunk, Map and License Plate lights
 
530AWHP with a Cobb OTS stage 1 only
555AWHP with MP/tune from Linney
Best ET 10.52@128 with midpipe/tune/NT05R's
 
Gone but never forgotten, Memorial Day 2017

New GTR
2009 SS Jack's Built ETS 3582R. From Motown to The Lou, and we're proud

#5
JohnnyTSi

JohnnyTSi

    Stock

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 38 posts
  • Joined 16-March 19
  • LocationEverett, WA

If you're worried about downtime, you could have one of the vendors on this site build you one, then return your core after you swap them

 

See #2 above - any 9sec car is going to break at some point, having spare parts ready to go will keep the pain to a minimum.

 

and of course I enjoy the build of a project as much as driving it when complete.

 

John-


Beautiful Blue FBO 2013 R35 GTR

655/638tq Daily Driven street thrasher!

 

Cobb 3" Intakes
SBD Race Intercooler with TiAL BOVs

Cobb catted Down Pipes
Cobb mid pipe modded with a Borla resonator
MAP Muffled 3.5" cat back
ASNU 330 pumps
id1300x2 injectors
Visconti Flex Fuel kit
Omni 4bar Map sensor kit
Cobb Fuel Pressure sensor kit
Torque Solution Maf Block-off Plates


#6
droptopp

droptopp

    Stage 4 Member

  • Member
  • 1,861 posts
  • Joined 16-February 14
Only way to minimize downtime is to have TSM, T1 or Doug@WGP build you a spare IMHO and I know a thing or two about downtime lol.

Also why bother with ethanol ? Just run pump E85 and grab a set of Elites and call it a day. They can run 1000 on pump (which you probably don’t want to do either) on wastegate or 1400+ on E85.

Please don’t take offense, but you clearly wouldn’t be the first accomplished machinist to not get things right on these motors. There is a skill set to these specific motors that are pretty apparent in this industry if you dig deep enough.

A core block is just as good as a new block if it’s to tolerance and you know what specifically to look for and focus on my first sentence. No way of sleeve a block, matter of fact a smart man once told me if someone wanted to sleeve a new block, run.

Wish you the best of luck.

Edited by droptopp, 05 December 2019 - 09:04 PM.

TSM Billet Crank 4.1 w/ CP billet pistons, TSM Elite Prime turbos, TSM Wet Sump Oling upgrade, flex fuel, ETS mid and down pipe, STM titanium axle back, STM race FMIC, ID2000’s, Shep One K with drop gears and all the goodies., DS Axles, Volk Saga 18” 10/12” (MT ET Streets), Advan GT Premium 20” R888. 1450+ hp / 1210+ tq

Old setups : Alpha 9 w/ AMS 3.8, GTX3582R Gen II w/ AMS 4.1 billet crank, GTX3582R Gen II w/ AMS 4.0 big bore billet crank and of course FBO E85.

#7
JohnnyTSi

JohnnyTSi

    Stock

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 38 posts
  • Joined 16-March 19
  • LocationEverett, WA

sigh - why is it so hard to get an answer to a reasonably simple question?

 

please - no one else tell me I'm doing it wrong or "itwillneverwoorrrrkk" or that it takes voodoo to rebuild an engine block!

 

John-


Beautiful Blue FBO 2013 R35 GTR

655/638tq Daily Driven street thrasher!

 

Cobb 3" Intakes
SBD Race Intercooler with TiAL BOVs

Cobb catted Down Pipes
Cobb mid pipe modded with a Borla resonator
MAP Muffled 3.5" cat back
ASNU 330 pumps
id1300x2 injectors
Visconti Flex Fuel kit
Omni 4bar Map sensor kit
Cobb Fuel Pressure sensor kit
Torque Solution Maf Block-off Plates


#8
droptopp

droptopp

    Stage 4 Member

  • Member
  • 1,861 posts
  • Joined 16-February 14

sigh - why is it so hard to get an answer to a reasonably simple question?

please - no one else tell me I'm doing it wrong or "itwillneverwoorrrrkk" or that it takes voodoo to rebuild an engine block!

John-


John - answer is there :)

“A core block is just as good as a new block if it’s to tolerance “
  • JohnnyTSi likes this
TSM Billet Crank 4.1 w/ CP billet pistons, TSM Elite Prime turbos, TSM Wet Sump Oling upgrade, flex fuel, ETS mid and down pipe, STM titanium axle back, STM race FMIC, ID2000’s, Shep One K with drop gears and all the goodies., DS Axles, Volk Saga 18” 10/12” (MT ET Streets), Advan GT Premium 20” R888. 1450+ hp / 1210+ tq

Old setups : Alpha 9 w/ AMS 3.8, GTX3582R Gen II w/ AMS 4.1 billet crank, GTX3582R Gen II w/ AMS 4.0 big bore billet crank and of course FBO E85.

#9
JohnnyTSi

JohnnyTSi

    Stock

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 38 posts
  • Joined 16-March 19
  • LocationEverett, WA

John - answer is there :)

“A core block is just as good as a new block if it’s to tolerance “

 

lol - true enough - except buying a used block is a crap shoot, never know what you get until it arrives.

 

I think I've decided to buy a new OEM block and hope everything measures out! If not, off to the machine shop it goes!

 

Thanks,

John-


Beautiful Blue FBO 2013 R35 GTR

655/638tq Daily Driven street thrasher!

 

Cobb 3" Intakes
SBD Race Intercooler with TiAL BOVs

Cobb catted Down Pipes
Cobb mid pipe modded with a Borla resonator
MAP Muffled 3.5" cat back
ASNU 330 pumps
id1300x2 injectors
Visconti Flex Fuel kit
Omni 4bar Map sensor kit
Cobb Fuel Pressure sensor kit
Torque Solution Maf Block-off Plates


#10
colo_evo

colo_evo

    Stage 1 Member

  • Member
  • 143 posts
  • Joined 20-September 16

lol - true enough - except buying a used block is a crap shoot, never know what you get until it arrives.

I think I've decided to buy a new OEM block and hope everything measures out! If not, off to the machine shop it goes!

Thanks,
John-


For what it's worth my new oem bare block from nissan combined with nissan bearings and crank measured out great. I highly suggest checking your equipment a few times if your measurements come out wrong.

You have the rod and main bearing matrix charts yet?
  • droptopp likes this

#11
JohnnyTSi

JohnnyTSi

    Stock

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 38 posts
  • Joined 16-March 19
  • LocationEverett, WA

For what it's worth my new oem bare block from nissan combined with nissan bearings and crank measured out great. I highly suggest checking your equipment a few times if your measurements come out wrong.

You have the rod and main bearing matrix charts yet?

 

^^ This is exactly what I wanted to hear - Thank You

 

Yes on the matrix chart - My googlefoo is strong it is!  :D

 

Thanks,

John-

 

[EDIT]

 

Just thought of a couple more questions - Were the bores to spec? straight and with the crosshatch all ready to drop in pistons?

is the new block/crank marked so you can use the matrix chart (assuming so due to your above comment/question?)

 

[/EDIT]


Edited by JohnnyTSi, 06 December 2019 - 03:39 PM.

Beautiful Blue FBO 2013 R35 GTR

655/638tq Daily Driven street thrasher!

 

Cobb 3" Intakes
SBD Race Intercooler with TiAL BOVs

Cobb catted Down Pipes
Cobb mid pipe modded with a Borla resonator
MAP Muffled 3.5" cat back
ASNU 330 pumps
id1300x2 injectors
Visconti Flex Fuel kit
Omni 4bar Map sensor kit
Cobb Fuel Pressure sensor kit
Torque Solution Maf Block-off Plates


#12
colo_evo

colo_evo

    Stage 1 Member

  • Member
  • 143 posts
  • Joined 20-September 16

^^ This is exactly what I wanted to hear - Thank You

Yes on the matrix chart - My googlefoo is strong it is! :D

Thanks,
John-

[EDIT]

Just thought of a couple more questions - Were the bores to spec? straight and with the crosshatch all ready to drop in pistons?
is the new block/crank marked so you can use the matrix chart (assuming so due to your above comment/question?)

[/EDIT]


New block is marked, same with your crank. It's pretty simple to figure out what bearings nissan suggests.

I did not measure the bores for roundness. I measured piston to wall clearence and it was right where the piston manufacture said it would be.

#13
Doug@WGP

Doug@WGP

    Stage 4 Member

  • Vendors
  • 2,851 posts
  • Joined 25-April 13
I think the not so great assumption being made here is that you’d want to bearing the motor based on the oem stampings on the crank etc.
  • socalaviator likes this

Doug Ross
Owner of Weapons Grade Performance
-Northeast/Pacific Northwest Shops where we ONLY work on GT-Rs
-Owner/Builder of the 1st Ever Home Garage GT-R Drivetrain Removal
Cobb Protuner / EcuTek Tuner / MoTec Calibrator
-Mainline Dyno in House
doug@weaponsgradeperformance.com
Our Online Store
East Coast Location 21B Ozick Dr, Durham, CT   West Coast Location 16726 146th St SE, Monroe, WA


#14
colo_evo

colo_evo

    Stage 1 Member

  • Member
  • 143 posts
  • Joined 20-September 16

I think the not so great assumption being made here is that you’d want to bearing the motor based on the oem stampings on the crank etc.


Exactly why I said what Nissan suggestes.

I opened up my clearences a bit while still using oem bearings.

#15
JohnnyTSi

JohnnyTSi

    Stock

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 38 posts
  • Joined 16-March 19
  • LocationEverett, WA

Decision Made:

 

Attached Images

  • Capture (800x700).jpg

  • Tim, 7racer, thehelix112 and 1 other like this

Beautiful Blue FBO 2013 R35 GTR

655/638tq Daily Driven street thrasher!

 

Cobb 3" Intakes
SBD Race Intercooler with TiAL BOVs

Cobb catted Down Pipes
Cobb mid pipe modded with a Borla resonator
MAP Muffled 3.5" cat back
ASNU 330 pumps
id1300x2 injectors
Visconti Flex Fuel kit
Omni 4bar Map sensor kit
Cobb Fuel Pressure sensor kit
Torque Solution Maf Block-off Plates


#16
Tim

Tim

    FYI Gators eat the bones

  • OEM Member
  • 9,745 posts
  • Joined 06-December 12
  • LocationBlue water and White Sandy Beaches

And a fine decision it is 


 

 


#17
colo_evo

colo_evo

    Stage 1 Member

  • Member
  • 143 posts
  • Joined 20-September 16
Mine came on that same flimsy pallet.
  • Tim likes this

#18
parkermotorsport

parkermotorsport

    Stage 1 Member

  • Member
  • 103 posts
  • Joined 08-November 15

*
POPULAR

I think the not so great assumption being made here is that you’d want to bearing the motor based on the oem stampings on the crank etc.


This. x100. I can assure you the reputable shops that actually field cars at major events aren’t just parts assemblers. They have tested different combinations of bearing clearances, piston to wall clearances, etc. to come up with reliable combinations for the desired power level. Your biggest challenge in this endeavor won’t be doing the actual assembly of the parts; it will be finding someone willing to share the ‘recipe’ that you can then use to assemble everything.

I see you went with a new block which is a perfectly fine starting point at a fairly reasonable cost, all things considered. The bearing clearance markings on it will be worthless though as, once you drop some studs in it to hold the bottom end together the bearing bores will no longer be round and you’ll need to line bore/hone it anyway to get to your desired clearance. This is even more imperative if you choose a non graded aftermarket bearing like the Kings.

As for buying a new balanced rotation assembly, I’m not sure exactly what you mean but assume you are talking about ‘drop-in’ pistons and rods on a stock crank. If so, I’d toss that idea out as true drop-in pistons and rods are somewhat of a myth and won’t be nearly as balanced as one would want attached to an out of the box crank. Fortunately, a good balance job isn’t that expensive so that’s not a big hurdle. The important thing is to pick the rods and pistons that suit your build the best and don’t worry about them not being drop in. Most quality piston and rod combos will be lighter than stock and you definitely don’t want to put heavier components in your rotating assembly just to avoid having to balance it.

For examples of this, here are a few aftermarket rod gross weight and big end/small end weight splits. The only rod that is somewhat close to stock is the ‘regular’ Manley and even then the split is way off from stock. Of course, you could make up for some of this with piston weight but even then then, look at the drastic difference compared to stock below. I don’t recall the pin wall thickness those were based off but I’m sure you get the point. Lastly, don’t forget to take all you piston bore clearance measurements with a torque plate properly torqued down with your chosen head fasteners (studs I assume).

Good luck with your build!

Stock Rod 725g, 524/201
Carrillo 600g, 411/189 (WMC bolts)
Carrillo 604g, 416/188 (CARR bolts)
Carrillo XD 754g, 520/224
Pauter 689g, 473/225
Manley I Beam 720g, 505/214
Manley Tri Beam 745g, 514/231

Stock Piston w/Pin/Rings/Locks 610g
JE Piston/Pin/Rings/Locks 584g
CP Piston/Pin/Rings/Locks 576g
  • Tim, 7racer, thehelix112 and 2 others like this

#19
RocketSled

RocketSled

    Stock

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
  • Joined 30-September 17

Is this the JohnnyTSI from back in DSM land?



#20
JohnnyTSi

JohnnyTSi

    Stock

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 38 posts
  • Joined 16-March 19
  • LocationEverett, WA

Is this the JohnnyTSI from back in DSM land?

 

Yup - DSM and EVO graduate.

 

John-

Attached Images

  • 20180830_182906 (640x480).jpg
  • EVO (7) (640x480).jpg

Edited by JohnnyTSi, 16 January 2020 - 08:06 PM.

  • Tim, 7racer and thehelix112 like this

Beautiful Blue FBO 2013 R35 GTR

655/638tq Daily Driven street thrasher!

 

Cobb 3" Intakes
SBD Race Intercooler with TiAL BOVs

Cobb catted Down Pipes
Cobb mid pipe modded with a Borla resonator
MAP Muffled 3.5" cat back
ASNU 330 pumps
id1300x2 injectors
Visconti Flex Fuel kit
Omni 4bar Map sensor kit
Cobb Fuel Pressure sensor kit
Torque Solution Maf Block-off Plates





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users