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Droptopp Alpha 9 3.8 / 4.1 / 4.0 AMS Engines


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#1
droptopp

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I never understand some people’s inability to review and comprehend a situation without personal engagement and just to simply review the facts.

AMS offers to build a Fourth motor and incur all costs associated but only if I ship the car to them.

The fourth motor !!!

The third motor everyone asks ? Will have a full third party tear down performed and every single picture posted.

Consumed 2 quarts of oil in 200 miles and smelled like I was at a BBQ on break in no boost. Leaking oil onto pistons ....

Martin says not normal but sure is for their regular run of the mill $20,000 4.1 billet crank stroker and $20,800 4.0 big bore sleeved block.

What happened to AMS ? I seriously bought a GTR because of Omega .....

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Edited by droptopp, 22 April 2019 - 07:55 PM.

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GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#2
droptopp

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200 miles and 2 quarts of oil consumption.

Stock injectors, stock midpipe for break in for NYS inspection.

Intakes, IC, IC piping, throttle bodies all dry.

Feel bad STM has had to throw so much time and labor into these motors from AMS.

Why I didn’t have someone else build it earlier and just eat the cost is beyond me.

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Edited by droptopp, 22 April 2019 - 11:36 AM.

GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#3
droptopp

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First heat cycle :(

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https://youtu.be/smYjQ8yAscA

Edited by droptopp, 23 April 2019 - 12:30 AM.

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GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#4
droptopp

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AMS built the 4.1 stroker with billet crank and put used Alpha 9 cams back into the motor.

No quality or process control - multiple emails, calls and texts knowing 1200+ hp goals with 35 series turbos being used and they put a set of used cams in the engine.

When I am scratching my head and asking why the motor is flat lining at 7200 nobody knows.

Well luckily AMS admitted the wrong cams were used but still charged me for their oiling issues and to build a third motor.

Then when they shipped the motor they kept new parts that were stamped and not returned.

Oversight - maybe, probably but shouldn’t have happened on motor -#3.

Edited by droptopp, 22 April 2019 - 01:56 PM.

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GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#5
Tim

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I have a feeling The reserved spots are not happy reservations
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#6
colo_evo

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I have a feeling The reserved spots are not happy reservations


Same. I feel bad for Droptop, he hasn't been able to enjoy his car for years.
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#7
7racer

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oh no, I thought this was going to be happy


In7anity!!


#8
CasualObserver

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I’m guessing by the lack of information but post reservations there is something to the effect of “If you don’t do X, I’ll light you up on the forums”... Amiright?

#9
haul s

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Based on http://www.gtrherita...ho-did-you-use/I’d say he’s reached the point of no return.
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#10
droptopp

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I never understand some people’s inability to review and comprehend a situation without personal engagement and just to simply review the facts.

Anyone that knows me, this is the last thing I would ever do. At some point gotta pull the plug and move on.

AMS offers to build a FOURTH motor and incur all costs associated but only if I ship the car to them.

The FOURTH motor !!! At some point it’s a skills and ability issue.

The third motor everyone asks ? Will have a full third party tear down performed and pictures posted.

Consumed 2 quarts of oil in 200 miles and smelled like I was at a BBQ on break in no boost. Leaking oil onto pistons ....

Martin says not normal for AMS, but sure is for their regular run of the mill $20,000 4.1 billet crank stroker and $20,800 4.0 big bore sleeved block that they have sold to me.

AMS’s idea of we will stand behind it is they don’t charge labor ....... if I did this to my customers my kids tuition wouldn’t be paid.

What happened to AMS ? I seriously bought a GTR because of Omega .....

Hopefully I can save someone the headache and costs incurred with choosing which shop builds an engine.

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Edited by droptopp, 22 April 2019 - 11:14 AM.

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GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#11
Vanilla

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what is that black stuff in the oil filter?



#12
droptopp

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AMS is free to chime in as I sent the filter back to them.

I sent out a sample so have a good understanding of what it is as well.
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GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#13
earico

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Oil cooler and lines were flushed clean before installing new motor? Just dbl checking.

 

No head porting? I see stock intake ports.


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#14
droptopp

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All new coolers (on third one - soon the fourth) and lines.

“Supposedly” new block and deck plate valve job on the heads and also a full disassembly and thorough cleaning on it, “it's cheap insurance to make sure the valve job is sealing well.”

Exhaust guides were out of spec “supposedly” from motor #2 that had less than a handful of pulls on it and had too much clearance between the valve stem and the guide and all the exhaust valve guides needing to be replaced. Why AMS shipped with these issues for motor #2 is beyond me.

This was the third time the heads were “cleaned up” and complete Ferrea valvetrain installed.

Will know more on tear down.
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GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#15
droptopp

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https://youtu.be/ZM81An1uwlg

Oil, oil everywhere ..... but where it’s supposed to be.
GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#16
7racer

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geesh!  how did they let this car out of their garage!


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In7anity!!


#17
ghostrider

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Sad to see , what most people thought was a reputable shop,and still may be.......A lot of people have switched,employee's have left..so on and so on......Hope you get things worked out !!..


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#18
droptopp

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geesh! how did they let this car out of their garage!


AMS and Martin specifically focused on the blame game as opposed to addressing the issues.

That’s with motor #2 and #3. I wrote off the A9 motor as collateral.

Actually said an Alpha 9 flex’d the block - blew my mind !!!

Actually expected me to believe 830hp flex’d a block cause the 700lb ft of tq. #mindblown

Never root cause analysis done - just blame everyone but their inability to build a motor for the street.
GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#19
Martin@amsperformance

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To clarify,  AMS did not work on this car, do the install, or the do tuning on it. We only built the engine(s) and shipped them out.
 
I want to state the FACTS here because it seems emotions are getting the better of people and there are assumptions being made.  As of most recently we offered to pick the customers car up for free, look into the latest issue (not knowing who or what is at fault) and fix it for free, and deliver it back for free but the customer declined this.  
 
To reiterate, we have built the engines but we have not installed nor tuned any of these engines. Here is a summary of events so everyone is aware.
 
Engine #1
Basic 3.8L build 
Customer sent in a long block for a core.  Installed in 2014 and ran well for 2.5-3 years on an alpha 9 and had only 4000-5000 miles on it according to the customer.  If you follow the thread there was plenty of racing done on this engine (1/4 mile, 60-130) on E85.  When it was sent in the main bearings were hammered.  If this engine was built incorrectly and bearing clearances out of spec it wouldn't have lasted 30 miles under load.   For main bearings to go there needs to be something drastically wrong either bearing clearance, main bore concentricity, rank flex, loss of oil pressure or oil, contaminated oil, or excessive torque.  Incorrect clearance or concentricity from error on our part would show up very quickly, almost immediately.   Again AMS did not install or tune this engine!
 
Engine #2
4.1L with a Sonny Bryant billet crankshaft
The block and main bores were still withing specification so the same block was used on this build.  This engine was installed in early 2017, tuned (again neither by AMS) and allegedly ran for 1000 miles before it also did the same thing engine #1 did.  We didn't know until after the failure but the customer upgraded to a Garrett GTX3582 turbo kit (built by his shop) on this second engine.  When we asked for data logs from any runs we were told there were none.   
At this time the customer is upset, and I can sympathize, but we can't assume where the fault lies. The customer is also upset when I tell him he has small Tomei camshafts upon inspection, he ask why didn't we sell him bigger camshafts on the engine because he was running bigger turbos.  The customer originally had us quote an Alpha 12 to go with his 2nd engine built but then decided against it because he said he was concerned with the lag.  Unbeknownst to us, he got a different turbo kit for the car, so we had no reason to recommend larger camshafts.
Again this failure which was the exact same as the first failure, main bearing wiped out.  We didn't install this engine nor did we tune it, neither were there datalogs for us to look at.  The engine was just sent to us.  We were never told this engine was burning oil like the customer is stating now in his posts.  He also mentioned to me a phone call last week, that maybe that's why his engine ran out of oil because it was burning so much of it.. hmmm?
Were all the oil lines, turbo's and turbo lines, etc cleaned from metal debris on the first engine? Oil cooler?.  We have no idea because we didn't do the work. We have a log book and build sheet for every engine we do, with measured bearing clearances, bore sizes, piston sizes, ring gaps, leakdowns, etc.
 
 
Engine #3
 
At this point I suggest going with a 4.0L non stroker to be easier on the main girdle, just in case something is going on there or he's running  a lot of torque on this engine.
I also offer to swap out the mild Tomei camshafts for our Alpha camshafts for FREE.  These are much better suited for the larger turbo he's running (that we weren't made aware of before).  I also do a billet steel main girdle cap system that we were working on with our machine shop for FREE.  That cost to me is almost $4K for the conversion and machine work alone. AMS also give the customer a FREE brand new block from Nissan.  The previous block (that the customer originally supplied as a core) went through twice with main bearing being wiped out and we didn't want to risk anything in case it was flexing.  We did the labor on this entire engine for FREE.   Even after all the free parts & labor we then split the remaining cost (not retail price) in half with the customer.  He basically received an all new 4.0L dry sleeve SB billet crank long block (with new OEM block), custom billet steel main cap system,  oil pump, pistons, bearings, with new cams, and service work done on the heads for a little more than $6000.00
 
This most recent engine was installed by the customers shop and being broken in.  After 250 miles I was told it consumed 1 quart of oil and there is some oil seeping from somewhere in the engine (not leaking on the ground but oil moisture near some covers/ream main).  A borescope was put down a cylinder and there is lots of oil pooled up on top of the piston.  The shop he has it at pulled off the intake manifold and I was told there is a lot of oil in the manifold and runners but nothing pre-throttle body.  
 At this point not knowing what is wrong I offer to pick the car up for free, fix whatever is wrong for free (not even knowing if this is our fault or not), finish break in and tune for free, and deliver it for free. The customer refuses and claims he will take it to a different place to build the engine.  
 
I'm not sure how much more fair and reasonable I could have been.  We didn't install or tune any of these engines, that is all out of our control.  The first engine lasted 2.5-3 years and then lost bearings.  Engines don't do that if they aren't built correctly due to clearances, they fail almost immediately.  This last engine I offered everything on our dime including shipping of the vehicle without even seeing what could be wrong, it was still not good enough.  I then offered his money back if we would get back to our shop (again on our dime) diagnose what was wrong, and if it was our fault I would issue a refund on this last engine.  The customer also refused that. 
 
Yes we can make mistakes, and when we do we absolutely cover it.  I have customer that can attest to that. We also have a lot of fast race cars and street cars that we built completely or just built engine for that are out there and last!   There is more to it than just building an engine. The tuning, the care, and how the engine is used all affect the longevity.  
 
 
edited for clarification up top.

Edited by Martin@amsperformance, 23 April 2019 - 05:50 PM.

Martin Musial
President  - AMS Performance - Alpha Performance
 
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#20
GTR_In_Michigan

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 This is the first time I see someone question the skills and ability of AMS as a shop.

 I definitely have to empathize with the way you're feeling, because I've been there with my Corvette: I broke it (supercharged), paid a big name shop (LME) to build the motor, and it was garbage: Burned oil, made no power, and then spun its crank bearings and ate a crank because the bearing clearances were too big and no matter how thick an oil I used it just couldn't maintain enough oil pressure.
I had another shop rebuild a second engine (Black Dog Racing), and that too had similar issues and ended up with spun bearings 5 thousand miles later. I actually told myself I would never pay to get another engine built again.
Years later I wanted more power than I could get from the stock engine in my GTR, and I had AMS build it for me.
They turned the work around two weeks, and I put 18,000 miles on the car the year it got built. During the Corsa Rally, I drove it from Detroit, to New York, then from New York to San Diego. 3300 miles and no time to change the oil because there was no time on a rallly. I beat the car for all it was worth: 200+ mile an hour runs, continuously cruising at 150+MPH in the desert, and a full track day at M1 Concourse walking away from every exotic car on the track. When I arrived in San Diego the dip stick, was 1/8" low.
The car makes 1100AWHP / 925WTQ and continuous to be driven every day; last month it went 8.64 @ 161MPH during TX2K. Still the same engine, now pushing 23,000 miles. It still burns no oil and has no issues.
You are certainly entitled to be upset, but you're using one data point to say they can't build engines; trust me, if your issue was common there would be about one of these threads every other day, considering how many shops go through there. They offered to make it right: Why not take them up on that offer?

-Sam.


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