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Any documented cases of stock crankshaft failure?

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37 replies to this topic

#1
Turbotuner20v

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I know the general consensus is sub-1,300whp for stock crank builds, but how was that number determined?

I've tried a few search combos on both sites and google and can't find a stock crank failure.
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#2
Maniphanh

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I know the general consensus is sub-1,300whp for stock crank builds, but how was that number determined?

I've tried a few search combos on both sites and google and can't find a stock crank failure.


I was trying to find the same answer but it seems to me that there isn’t any proven facts that stock crank max out at around 1300whp though I can see that proving this theory would be costly.

I believe it is all starts with vendor claims passing 1300whp you would need race block which will have billet crank. I’m not sure this is based on face or marketing so far I think it is marketing based on my finding.

With this said, boostin has their $7500 short block that has been running on their client 1500whp with no issue and I confirmed this with them. there is a topic talking about this in details if you are interested in reading I would search for stock manifold turbo.
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#3
Turbotuner20v

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I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it's all a marketing gimmick... but I would be curious to see more examples of what power they failed at and under what conditions.  I saw a few post from TSM about the tune trying to push the torque too far left on big turbos causing breakage as well, so may be setup/tune dependent as well? 



#4
Doug@WGP

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I don’t know as it’s so much the crank “failing” as in it flexing above a certain hp and torque which causes bearing failure...

Doug Ross
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#5
Bill@SiR

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Yes Ive seen the back snap off of 2 of them at 1200-1300hp

 

For rolling races they are OK with more power.  But to be honest at higher power getting a stronger billet crank is cheap insurance compared to the rest of the motor.   

 

If you want to save money and or dont launch the car hard, and dont plan to make 1500+whp then by all means use the stock one. 

 

I would go with with what your engine builder recommends.  If he does not know, then go to another engine builder that does.


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#6
Neil Switzer

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The stock crank is more reliable than most give it credit. I wouldn't put a HP rating on it, but torque should be figured in. 


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#7
Bill@SiR

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The stock crank is more reliable than most give it credit. I wouldn't put a HP rating on it, but torque should be figured in. 

 

Yes torque is an issue, When you start to get into the 900+ range, you need to have someone that knows whats going on doing the engine.  

 

It does not fail at x power.  Engine building, Tuning, and abuse are all major factors into making it live or not. 

 

Basically throw pistons and rods into a VR38 and it will hold 1100hp/800tq for a decent amount of time if you are competent.  IMHO above that you need to be using someone with experience above that level.  a LOT of little things to that can done to make it last at higher HP levels.   

 

Aftermarket cranks break too!  Anything can break if you try hard enough.  

 

A lot of people also say that OEM heads bolts and gaskets are required at above 1200hp.  I have an A16 customer at 1600whp with both OE Gaskets and Bolts on a 3.8L.  BUT here it comes.  The gasket isnt stock, the head is not stock, the deck surface and block surface are not stock, the bolts are not stock.  Im honestly more worried about the OEM Girdle than I am the head gaskets. 


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#8
Turbotuner20v

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For my specific scenario I'm looking at doing a Tim Lynch motor build based around a stock crank with an elite+ shooting for 1300whp/1050wtq (trans built for 1100wtq) and running a 1/4 event once in a while to get an 8 sec slip and then 200mph 1/2 mile passes. It seems to be on the edge of some people's rules for stock crank, but I also see lots of elite+ builds that I assume use stock crank.

Edited by Turbotuner20v, 20 March 2018 - 07:54 PM.


#9
Doug@WGP

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^In before the above blows up haha.

Doug Ross
Owner of Weapons Grade Performance
-Northeast/Pacific Northwest Shops where we ONLY work on GT-Rs
-Owner/Builder of the 1st Ever Home Garage GT-R Drivetrain Removal
Cobb Protuner / EcuTek Tuner
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#10
celsius

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I opt'd for the TSM racing SB that has a Bryant crank just to give me piece of mind.  I'd like to know at what power level is a Billet Girdle required?


Edited by celsius, 21 March 2018 - 02:47 AM.


#11
celsius

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I know the general consensus is sub-1,300whp for stock crank builds, but how was that number determined?

I've tried a few search combos on both sites and google and can't find a stock crank failure.

 

If you ask Tym Lynch or any other reputable builder, I believe they know of failures to the OEM crank and probable causes....


Edited by celsius, 21 March 2018 - 06:36 AM.


#12
Turbotuner20v

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^In before the above blows up haha.


Why?

#13
Zilla

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I think that torque would be the culprit more than anything in my opinion. I have managed to lift heads even with the billet girdle and it comes down to all the other small pieces to fall in place and work together perfectly in order to run this motor long term on high hp/tq combo hence the need for an exceptional builder that has those factors already figured out. Flexing of the stock crank would always worry me in the back of my head if I was running a motor around 1k tq. It necessarily wont fail but it will be the supporting components that might go due to the minor flexing etc.


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#14
Turbotuner20v

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I think that torque would be the culprit more than anything in my opinion. I have managed to lift heads even with the billet girdle and it comes down to all the other small pieces to fall in place and work together perfectly in order to run this motor long term on high hp/tq combo hence the need for an exceptional builder that has those factors already figured out. Flexing of the stock crank would always worry me in the back of my head if I was running a motor around 1k tq. It necessarily wont fail but it will be the supporting components that might go due to the minor flexing etc.

what head studs?



#15
Tim

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Man good to hear from some old school peeps. Neil and. Bill 2 very knowledgeable people and Bill has taken 5he longest piss I’ve ever seen in my life,fill 1.5 whatever’s the largest Starbucks coffee cup are...haha.
My .02 on this is that withthe way tunning has evolved 1500 is the new 1200 on Stock cranks even though Switzer uses stock cranks on all builds. I have also learned that you really don’t want to go 1000ftlbs on theTQ
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#16
Zilla

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what head studs?

The best ARP had to offer lol



#17
Turbotuner20v

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The best ARP had to offer lol

 

Cool, CA625 I assume then.  I've found it interesting how many folks use stock head bolts so just was curious.



#18
Turbotuner20v

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^In before the above blows up haha.

 

 

Why?

 

 

Still curious what this comment was in regards to..?



#19
Cicio@TSM

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As others have said here it isn't really a power level thing.   However it's kind of silly to say it has to do with torque since HP is only a calculation of TQ and RPM... soooo 

 

There are things the stock crank does NOT like.  It does not like high RPM over time, it does not like detonation, it does not like HP/TQ numbers above a certain level and in the wrong places. 

 

I have seen stock cranks cracked at 800hp by someone who really shouldn't be building/tuning... and I have seen them last at 1400hp levels if not pushed too hard. 

 

 

 

As for the engine build I would suggest you think strongly about getting an engine from a shop actually out there testing and pushing limits.  For multiple reasons it is better to have a reputable shop behind the heart of your car than a guy in a garage.   Shops like ours, T1, English, Ivey who have actually pushed these cars, taken apart hundreds of engines and learned what to do to make them better have a huge advantage in longevity and knowledge.  Not to mention the little things like where to use what ARP bolts or stock bolts, or how to assemble things can be gleaned from a reputable shop if you are doing business with them.   That doesn't even go into the fact that it is better to support the companies that are out there pushing and learning to support their clients and the community as a whole.  

 

Just my .02 cents worth. 


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#20
Doug@WGP

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Still curious what this comment was in regards to..?

I think Cicio put this pretty well. You want a 200mph, 1000+ TQ TSM Elite? Have TSM build it.

I’ve been putting together dozens of GTR engines for over 5 years, blown up several, and we’ve done quite a few elites so far... and this turbo setup WILL break your car if you get carried away on the keyboard, or skimp out by using cheap parts or the wrong parts. (Read between the lines on your proposed sources and uses)

We recently made the decision that when we install elites, we use engines and components from TSM. We like the idea of supporting their efforts, and in turn their efforts to support us.

To not do so would be like putting a Honda crankshaft in your Ferrari.

By piecing it together from mail order parts from various inexperienced sources with no skin in the game... who are you gonna lynch (other than yourself) when your car underperforms or blows up?

Doug Ross
Owner of Weapons Grade Performance
-Northeast/Pacific Northwest Shops where we ONLY work on GT-Rs
-Owner/Builder of the 1st Ever Home Garage GT-R Drivetrain Removal
Cobb Protuner / EcuTek Tuner
-All Wheel Drive Mustang Dyno in House
doug@weaponsgradeperformance.com
Our Online Store
East Coast Location 226 N. Plains Industrial Rd, Wallingford CT 06492 203-668-4765





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