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car will start but won't run

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11 replies to this topic

#1
davidm_sh

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Hello - it's been a few years since I have been around - I have just been enjoying it in it's modded form since around 2013

 

- ASNU 1150 injectors

- E85 tune

- catless midpipe

- Greddy FMIC

- 2012 turbo inlet pipes

- upgraded fuel pumps (I can't quite remember - probably pertinent to diagnosing I know)

- Cobb reflash - base tune by Ben Limey (for ASNU injectors) and tune done by Harvey / BoostCreep

 

- second oil cooler + Greddy tranny cooler

 

Anyway the car has been running great and today went to start it up. I did turn the car to engine start mode (wanted to look up something in the navi) without actually starting the car. 

 

1) Then I start the car - it actually just turns over for 5-6 seconds and stops trying on it's own - this almost never happens - 50 F 

2) I try again and it fires right up - goes to 2000rpm for 2-3 seconds and then tries to bring the rpms down - like normal - assuming a very short open loop fuel cycle here

3) when the rpms come down things get REALLY lopey and rough - idle fluctuated from 100 rpm - 2000 rpm for a couple of seconds - lots of white-ish smoke coming out - I am running E85

4) I tried this about 3-4 times. Half the time the rpms would flucuate so wildly the engine would stop on it's own and the other time I stopped the car because it was lugging down around 100-300 rpm - sounded like crap - lots of smoke

 

So first thoughts are:

1) fuel pump going out? I checked my fuel pressure during on of the start attempts (the last one) and it was around 30-33psi - which seems a bit low (thinking idle is around 40-44psi IIRC)

2) coolant leak / head gasket with the white smoke - but the car ran fine with no noticeable issues and it really lives most of it's life as a street car tuned only to 17psi peak - 12 psi by redline 

3) ???

 

Anyone have any thoughts? Any and all insight would be greatly appreciated



#2
Tim

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How old is the gas?


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#3
davidm_sh

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I filled up a half tank about 2 days before. And before that the 1/2 tank of E85 was about a week old. Lately I have been driving the car 1-2 days / week. My normal rate is 1 day / week typically. It's not my daily driver.

 

It's a 2009 (I am original owner) and since then I have put about 40,000 miles on it. 



#4
Tim

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Have you checked fuel filter or your e content on your gas. if so id look at your pumps


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#5
davidm_sh

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I have not checked the filter or E85 content no. Thanks for the ideas

 

I also was wondering if one or more injectors could be stuck open possibly?

 

Curious do my symptoms sound familiar to anyone in terms of this type of thing has happened - rarely, semi-frequently, all the time, etc before in the past few years (now that the community has 3-4 years of E85 under their belt)? With more E85 time in the community has there been any issues like this showing up at all? 

 

I remember there being concern of certain injector components rusting due to the hydroscopic nature of E85 and if an owner doesn't run the car regularly enough the rust can cause issues for injectors? 

 

Any pumps that have proven good or bad with E85 over the past few years?

 

Thanks


Edited by davidm_sh, 24 November 2016 - 10:30 PM.


#6
2highpsi

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Could be an ethanol content analyzer fault.

 

First two things I would try (just to eliminate any questions) would be:

 

a battery reset (unhook the battery for a few then hook it back up)

 

and possibly reflash the tune 


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#7
davidm_sh

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Could be an ethanol content analyzer fault.

 

First two things I would try (just to eliminate any questions) would be:

 

a battery reset (unhook the battery for a few then hook it back up)

 

and possibly reflash the tune 

 

ethanol content analyzer fault would imply I have a flex fuel setup. I do not. I just run either straight E85 or 91 octane. I have been running straight E85 for the past 3 years now.

 

But that does imply I am flying 'extra blind' in terms of trusting the E85 fuel I am getting is fairly consistent. 

 

I need to get some of the fuel and actually test it I think next.

 

Thanks



#8
davidm_sh

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Minor update

 

I looked in my records. I am running drop in E85 compatible deatschwerks fuel pumps (my notes indicated 290 lph versions but I cannot find any of that size sold today - only 265 or 300 lph). The fuel pumps I have were drop-in. I installed them about 3.5 years ago and have put about 16,000 miles on them with 3-4 mild/half track days. 

 

 

So I was thinking with all my start attempts maybe it got 'flooded' a bit or something along those lines. 

 

So this morning I go out and tried to start it 3 times. Each time the engine wouldn't fire up. 

 

Looking at the fuel pressure it was reading 31-32psi on the first attempt then by the third attempt the fuel pressure was up to 38 psi.

 

From memory it seems that around idle (read vacuum in the intake manifold) fuel pressure was around 42-44psi. 

 

So at startup I would expect the fuel pressure to be even higher given no vacuum especially when you first prime the pump but before you start the car.

 

I was wondering if anyone has a fuel pressure gauge and stock rails / FPR to do the following for me. Could someone simply go out to their car and prime the pumps to see what the fuel pressure is before you actually start the car?

 

Thanks



#9
Doug@WGP

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Should be close to 50psi. Sounds like you've got a bad pump or leak internal in the tank like a blown o-ring.

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#10
davidm_sh

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Just an update.

 

I just popped off the upper intake manifold to check for a stuck injector. Since I am used to Subies it was a nice reminder that I could just prime/pressurize the pump and see if any of the injectors were stuck open (to explore the symptom of all the white smoke on the first start attempt).

 

So I primed the pump (it only got up to 24-28psi after 2 attempts with a battery voltage of 11.88V [which seems like plenty?]) and I saw no visible fuel coming out of the injector into the intake valve area. 

 

So it is looking ever more like a pump or o-ring issue. 

 

Couple of questions though

1) while looking at the intake valves there were a couple of cylinders where things looked noticeably different than the others. Particularly the DS rear cylinder intake valves seemed particularly cleaner than all the others. Is this normal at all or just an anomaly in my case?

 

Since I just topped off the tank before this all started I was thinking of an idea to make things a bit easier in removing the pump basket. Please let me know if this sounds like a bad idea :)?

 

I was thinking about using one of my old fuel pumps and wire it up to a battery charger at say 2 or 10 amps to pump out most of the fuel through the access port once I get it open.

 

EDIT: I also could get a telescoping mirror down the lower intake runners to see the bottom/output side of the injectors. So again running E85 straight for the past 2.5 years (I ran one tank of 91 octane through the year prior to that time period) and 16,000 miles.

 

The injector bottoms/output side looked completely clean and clear - like new - no 'black gunk' buildup at all.


Edited by davidm_sh, 03 December 2016 - 03:30 PM.

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#11
davidm_sh

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Just an update. Yah fixing 'fun things' like the GTR move slowly in my life these days [heh].

 

Anyway got around to replacing the pumps with new socks (DIY thread on that I found). That got the fuel pressure back up to the 50s at start up. 

 

The car started up and ran ... like crap. Lots of white smoke. After it warmed up it got better but 'not right'. Looking at STFT there was a 5-6% difference in B1 and B2. I also noticed one intake runner was very wet looking and after running it for a while it was completely 'cleaned out/off'. 
 

So I am going to send the injectors off to have them cleaned/flow tested and will see what comes of that. 



#12
davidm_sh

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Just to give an update. Unfortunately these days the GTR is not my top priority by a long shot so it took me a while to find the time to play with it.

 

The starting problem was the fuel pumps. After replacing the pumps the car was able to get to a good pressure (around 50-55psi) at start up. After that though it had a bit of white smoke for a few minutes of idling. So I sent out the ASNU 1100cc injectors for cleaning. I did a couple of rounds of trouble shooting with removing the upper intake manifold and I noticed cyl #6 (DS rear cyclinder - is that the correct number?) intake area/valves were very wet/gooy looking like it was getting more fuel. After another round of idling and a trip around the block I checked again and that cylinder intake valves were SPOTLESS unlike all the other ones which had a >< of crud on them. So I figured that injector was possibly stuck open causing the white smoke. 

 

Remember I ran E85 exclusively (with the exception of literally 3-4 tanks of 91 octane) for about 20k miles over the course of 3.5 years. The injector reported 1.6% difference between all injectors BEFORE the cleaning and 0.6% difference after. So the only thing I could think is maybe I got whatever was sticking the injector open when I removed the injectors and tapped all the fuel out before shipping? The fuel trims between B1 and B2 (at idle) went from 5-6% difference before the cleaning (and injector removal) down to 1-2% difference after the cleaning.

 

Upon driving it again there was a bit of white smoke initially off boost and black smoke on boost. Much more than before all this crap happened. So with a 1/4 tank of OLD (3.5 month) E85 I put in 10 gallons of new E85 and their was an immediate 75% reduction in black smoke at WOT. This was right before I got to TheBoostCreepLTD shop to do the intake tract smoke test which found no issues. I was suspecting a intake tract leak = over fueling on boost = black smoke but the test and my AFR monitoring proved that theory to be false.

 

The only things left to do now are follow up with Visconti to see if his in tank line issues are fully resolved and also install a new ID fuel filter as well. 


Edited by davidm_sh, 14 March 2017 - 03:29 PM.





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