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Prototype RacingBrake hybrid CCM/carbon pads

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#1
shawnhayes

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As you all know, I was one of the first adopters of the stillen CCM kit, and burnt them up with tons of track time.

Since then, I got a RacingBrake ZR1 kit with some rotors that were given to me after use by another generous user (you know who you are) and RacingBrake fixed me up with the proper hats.

I used up the carbon pads I had, and went back to metal (my RB's) to use up all of my backed up supply of pads before getting more carbon pads. I now have the opportunity to test the new prototype RB pad that is suitable for carbon/CCM street and some track use!

1a2218a5e6aa53adeb5161b4b9e7b495.jpg

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And installed!

76896cb82cf342cdc70250ce3cee7c5f.jpg

Boy am I glad to have these puppies back on. I missed them.

Shawn
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#2
thehelix112

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How are the rotors holding up Shawn? Many track days?

Dave

#3
shawnhayes

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How are the rotors holding up Shawn? Many track days?

Dave


Haven't weighed them to determine wear. They look and feel fine.

They have been through eight track days with me (I think). And many more before I got hold, but RacingBrake weighed them prior to shipping them back to me after mounting, and they were fine.

Shawn

#4
shawnhayes

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Initial impression of these prototype pads:

Street braking is SOMe better than either the "track" oriented sintered pads. And...wait for it....

MUCH better than the pagids that I had used last. The RSC1's. I cannot say for high speed stops (yet), but the street braking is the best I've had on any pad on carbons of any type so far.

Shawn
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#5
Warren-RB

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Shawn,

 

Your effort and contribution in helping GTR community is always appreciated.

 

This new compound is developed exclusively for street application for CCM rotors although we expect it can also perform well on track due to its full metallic nature of no resin to melt down at high temperature, while its friction level is not as high as the track compound detailed in this thread, but we still expect it to deliver a consistent performance with much better durability than conventional semi-metallic pads.

 

Thank you for your ongoing test and feedback.

 

 

 

 

 


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#6
werks

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Hey Shawn, just out of curiosity what pads have you been running in the past on those rotors that you posted prictures of above? The rotor surface seems to be pretty worn which with this type of rotor comes from the carbon fibers exposed on the rotor surface oxidizing leaving voids, what I call the worm wood effect. Based on looks I would think that you are probably getting torward the tail end of rotor life which is fine but when testing with rotors like this just be aware of the fact that  pad wear will also be accelerated significantly. Taking OEM pads when the rotor surface is new we will see 5-6 days of pad life (on track) while once worn like the rotor in your picture pad life will drop down to about 4 days max. So it's a reduction of about 1/3rd in pad life which is pretty substantial. Also in the pictures I can see that some of the holes in your rotor face are getting blocked with friction material. Part of my regular maintenance program between track days is inspecting rotors and clearing blockage of the holes. For that I have found that using this is about ideal:

 

http://www.harborfre...-set-93111.html

 

The second from smallest is a perfect fit for the holes drilled in the rotor surface and for clearing obstructions from it. Don't use a hammer or anything but just use your hand and push it through the hole to remove the friction material plugging it up. Also works great for knocking out the pad retaining pins on OEM calipers when changing brake pads!



#7
shawnhayes

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Hey Shawn, just out of curiosity what pads have you been running in the past on those rotors that you posted prictures of above? The rotor surface seems to be pretty worn which with this type of rotor comes from the carbon fibers exposed on the rotor surface oxidizing leaving voids, what I call the worm wood effect. Based on looks I would think that you are probably getting torward the tail end of rotor life which is fine but when testing with rotors like this just be aware of the fact that  pad wear will also be accelerated significantly. Taking OEM pads when the rotor surface is new we will see 5-6 days of pad life (on track) while once worn like the rotor in your picture pad life will drop down to about 4 days max. So it's a reduction of about 1/3rd in pad life which is pretty substantial. Also in the pictures I can see that some of the holes in your rotor face are getting blocked with friction material. Part of my regular maintenance program between track days is inspecting rotors and clearing blockage of the holes. For that I have found that using this is about ideal:

 

http://www.harborfre...-set-93111.html

 

The second from smallest is a perfect fit for the holes drilled in the rotor surface and for clearing obstructions from it. Don't use a hammer or anything but just use your hand and push it through the hole to remove the friction material plugging it up. Also works great for knocking out the pad retaining pins on OEM calipers when changing brake pads!

 

The original pad for these rotors was the endless compound distributed by WGP specifically for CCM's.

 

My first pad on this was Hawk DTC-70's, which faded above 120, but left a really good "schmear" on the face.

 

Follow up pad was prototype sintered pad from RacingBrake.

 

Pad after that was Pagid RSC1's, which I wore down pretty well.

 

This is the new pad.  I think I am near the end of the service life of the rotor, honestly, but am waiting to see how it ends itself.

 

Shawn

 

P.S. both RacingBrake and I tried to "remove" the Endless "clogs" from the holes.  They were quite locked in.  I ignore it.


Edited by shawnhayes, 14 November 2016 - 12:28 PM.


#8
ian.r

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are those backing plates copper?

#9
werks

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The original pad for these rotors was the endless compound distributed by WGP specifically for CCM's.

 

My first pad on this was Hawk DTC-70's, which faded above 120, but left a really good "schmear" on the face.

 

Follow up pad was prototype sintered pad from RacingBrake.

 

Pad after that was Pagid RSC1's, which I wore down pretty well.

 

This is the new pad.  I think I am near the end of the service life of the rotor, honestly, but am waiting to see how it ends itself.

 

Shawn

 

P.S. both RacingBrake and I tried to "remove" the Endless "clogs" from the holes.  They were quite locked in.  I ignore it.

 

Yep I tested DTC70's too and vaporized them in in 1 lap lol! Left a nice layer of black dust (friction material) down the side of the car, brake pedal went to the floor and wore away half the pad lol thos promptly went into the trash after that! Feedback that I have been getting on RSC1 is that they wear faster than OEM so that jibes with what you have seen. In regards to the new pad if it is a softer or more street oriented compound than the earlier syntered pads that I tested for RB then make sure to test them in their intended environment. Meaning if they are street pads, use them on the street. Street/track use them on the street and some on the track but do it with lap times and speeds that an entry level driver will normally be doing. The catch with this sintered material is really going to be figuring out the temperature ranges that the different friction compound formulas are intended for and then designating the product for that specific type of use. Exceeding those temperature ranges with traditional pad materials generally results in increased pad wear so you just wear out your pads quicker than normall and that's no biggy. With the sintered material it's a little more complex.

 

In regards to the clogs and removing them as mentioned I made it a part of my post track maintenance routine. When testing stuff it's imho important to try and replicate optimal conditions as close to possible. I'm guessing the holes are not their for nothing so blocking the holes imho is probably going to have some effect on cooling of the rotor. Try the punch that I mentioned it makes it fairly easy to keep the holes open especially if you do it regularly.


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#10
shawnhayes

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are those backing plates copper?

 

I think it's just paint, but I'm not certain.

 

Shawn



#11
shawnhayes

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Yep I tested DTC70's too and vaporized them in in 1 lap lol! Left a nice layer of black dust (friction material) down the side of the car, brake pedal went to the floor and wore away half the pad lol thos promptly went into the trash after that! Feedback that I have been getting on RSC1 is that they wear faster than OEM so that jibes with what you have seen. In regards to the new pad if it is a softer or more street oriented compound than the earlier syntered pads that I tested for RB then make sure to test them in their intended environment. Meaning if they are street pads, use them on the street. Street/track use them on the street and some on the track but do it with lap times and speeds that an entry level driver will normally be doing. The catch with this sintered material is really going to be figuring out the temperature ranges that the different friction compound formulas are intended for and then designating the product for that specific type of use. Exceeding those temperature ranges with traditional pad materials generally results in increased pad wear so you just wear out your pads quicker than normall and that's no biggy. With the sintered material it's a little more complex.

 

In regards to the clogs and removing them as mentioned I made it a part of my post track maintenance routine. When testing stuff it's imho important to try and replicate optimal conditions as close to possible. I'm guessing the holes are not their for nothing so blocking the holes imho is probably going to have some effect on cooling of the rotor. Try the punch that I mentioned it makes it fairly easy to keep the holes open especially if you do it regularly.

 

I understand on the first paragraph.

 

But, as far as the clogs go, I and RacingBrake have both tried with some pretty solid "punch"s.  It won't let go.  I think it's molten brake pad from the endless compound, and some from the sintered pad that I prototyped for RacingBrake.  Just can't get it out.

 

Shawn


Edited by shawnhayes, 14 November 2016 - 04:59 PM.


#12
Warren-RB

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Those drilled holes got blocked (full or partial) is just like brake dust on the wheels, you can either clean them or leave as is, nothing to worry about in my observation.

 

Some brake debris are harder than other to unclog, even after a through 100% cleaning, as soon as the pad is used, the hole got filled / blocked. In fact I was even wonder the purpose of these drilled holes, and would guess whoever the first mfgr started doing it, the other just followed - If these holes can truly affect cooling why Carbon Carbon rotor doesn't have drilled holes.

 

It's yet to be observed from more feedback, however I started noticing that our sintered pad transfer of layer* (deposit) actually add a protective coat on CCM disc surface, providing it's uniform (no runout issue), it's actually beneficial to make the CCM rotor even stronger and more durable (of course all holes will disappear, and even the surface void could well be filled up)

 

Again this is just my speculation which yet to be proven with more field tests and our run-out test on the used rotors.

 

 

*If the temperature is higher enough.


www.RacingBrake.com

#13
Warren-RB

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are those backing plates copper?

 

I think it's just paint, but I'm not certain.

 

Shawn

It's high tensile strength steel plate that was plated with copper to increase the bonding strength between the lining and backing plate.


Edited by Warren-RB, 17 July 2017 - 10:20 PM.

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#14
werks

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Again this is just my speculation which yet to be proven with more field tests and our run-out test on the used rotors.

 

 

That is why continued ongoing testing to figure out and get a better understanding of exactly what is going on with not only the pads but also the rotors is of such great importance! This (CCM rotors and their pads) are such a new type of technology for everyone that we are all litteraly learning something new about this stuff every time something is tested.


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#15
shawnhayes

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Update:

 

These pads are putting down a good transfer layer without a lot of prompting. The street braking is PHENOMENAL.  I haven't had them over 100 yet.

 

Very nice pads.  Very nice braking.

 

Shawn



#16
Warren-RB

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For semi-metallic pads the pad deposit is a bad thing as it can cause vibration and other ill-effects. But we have recently had an interesting observation on the "transfer of layer" from RB sintered pads to CCM rotors as you can see from various pictures here, which is beneficial to the rotor:

 

80-img_0631_62badc98ad32449c8d003d2090ce

80-img_0632_b6e4497ade47a1e6094656274fa8

80-img_0633_acdd09a3ba3fe065fa5c2a804208

80-img_0623_386db709bce11d2e41bf0986ea85

80-img_0624_9315b4a76efce1b8c4a6ae3852bd

80-img_0625_ed03667f22a83f7f5a4a1536d449

80-img_0627_cc900752912780ce16bd8e7b8b07

80-img_0628_b897f770a96f00ef3f863683b91d

 

These rotors are off from ZR1, as you can see the transfer of layer is very uniform - across the disc surface. We even checked the surface with a dial gage and all surfaces (front and rear, inner and outer) are within spec of .002" run out.

 

The layer even put a film over the void surface (where disc is deteriorating due to high heat) and restore the disc serviceability by adding a metallic coating to the CCM rotor surface which is an encouraging development.

 

 

 


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#17
shawnhayes

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These pads are clearly the best CCM pad I have tested for road use.  Perhaps because all my other pads were intended for track use, while these perform much better at room temp and below.

 

Tested at 20deg F, and stopping power is as good or better than the stock pads on stock rotors.

 

Initial bite is STRONG, and stopping power is excellent.  I haven't had them over 100mph yet (haven't been to the track yet), but I will let you know as soon as I can.

 

Shawn


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#18
Warren-RB

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Shawn,

 

Thanks for the feedback. Have you noticed the same uniform pad layer transfer to CCM disc surface as shown on those pictures I posted from track applications.


www.RacingBrake.com

#19
shawnhayes

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Shawn,

 

Thanks for the feedback. Have you noticed the same uniform pad layer transfer to CCM disc surface as shown on those pictures I posted from track applications.

 

Transfer layer is building quickly, but not yet uniform.  I have not been able to high speed bed yet.  These pads bed VERY quickly for carbon ceramic rotors.

 

Shawn



#20
shawnhayes

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And more...
While never billed for track duty, I HAD to take these pads out on the track.

A little fade above 127 mph when bedding, but now once bedded....

d01e60a907315dbe5b23d10dafd755a7.jpg

Great stopping power. Not quite heavy duty track pads, but a great hybrid street pad that will work very hard when needed.

Shawn
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