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Green filters looking good in oil analysis

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#61
tgkb278

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you have some FD going on with, which is the reason blackstone shows your FP and VC dropping and CAT is saying you got water! Classic E85 FD. Also, ethynol does not really effect FP. So you have some good amount of FD. This is a problem I've seen with GT-R's, I don't know why but have my own theories about the factory. :ponder: What oil filter are you using? It's probably compensating for the FD you see.


I was using OEM filter with Mobile 0w40.

It sound like it can get complicated with build motor, consider you will have a lot of moving parts in the motor that is not OEM. Like my build will have a dry sleeve, with coated CP Piston and rings that is meant for the sleeve. Then aftermarket bearings, cam, valve, spring, retainer. I guess most of those parts might still use material similar to OEM, but unless you know its exact metallurgy, it sounds like it will be hard to tell exactly which part is wearing down.

I can see that CAT knowing the exact metallurgy of its motor is a benefit to its analysis. Same as GE turbine, which has the same metallurgy for the same model. So comparison from sample to sample in the fleet is valid.

You will need a good data base on OEM and aftermarket metallurgy, then plug them into the algorithm to get a baseline for acceptable wear.

#62
tgkb278

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Curious what F1 does on this front

#63
shawnhayes

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Curious what F1 does on this front

 

In house.  Proprietary.  But, oil is changed almost totally with each event, and even during qualifying.

 

Shawn



#64
danielTRLK

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yes, as long as you are able to compile some information, analysis can be made. 

 

go to 4:45 if you don't care about fuels. exactly like Shawn said, oil change every single time.

 

gas analysis is another great chit chat as well.

 

Edit: won't let me upload video


Edited by danielTRLK, 05 March 2017 - 12:50 PM.


#65
danielTRLK

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    if you listen closely, the lady says up to 15 elements, which means they are using spectrosci on the video below you can even see the spectro icp, some of our stuff is spectrosci, but for elemental we use PE and Thermo, which is a lot better and nets 23 elements. Granted for trackside you only have one option, spectrosci and it sort of shows that the interpretation behind it is more important that how you got the data. it's better to have less accurate data and work around it than an inaccurate analysis that blows your head.

 

      go to 4:45


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#66
danielTRLK

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I was using OEM filter with Mobile 0w40.

It sound like it can get complicated with build motor, consider you will have a lot of moving parts in the motor that is not OEM. Like my build will have a dry sleeve, with coated CP Piston and rings that is meant for the sleeve. Then aftermarket bearings, cam, valve, spring, retainer. I guess most of those parts might still use material similar to OEM, but unless you know its exact metallurgy, it sounds like it will be hard to tell exactly which part is wearing down.

I can see that CAT knowing the exact metallurgy of its motor is a benefit to its analysis. Same as GE turbine, which has the same metallurgy for the same model. So comparison from sample to sample in the fleet is valid.

You will need a good data base on OEM and aftermarket metallurgy, then plug them into the algorithm to get a baseline for acceptable wear.

And that is why the consumer is stuck using Blackstone......the GT-R is not a fleet vehicle....I'm hoping to help out by providing an avenue for you guys to get good science. 

 

OEM filter isn't bad.........but there are better filters out there that are cheaper too.

 

Yes!!! people have tricked us before in the past but that is because they were lying. If you have a stock engine lets just say and you change from aluminum pistons to forged and don't tell us? of course we're not going to see piston wear. Now that's usually where Terry comes in and can tell something isn't right because the data doesn't add up. I don't have the level of experience that Terry does with mixmatched engines. 


Edited by danielTRLK, 05 March 2017 - 01:26 PM.


#67
danielTRLK

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for filters, you can actually do patch testing on filters, that is the only way to actually tell what the filter is doing, cutting them open doesn't do much, the stuff your filtering or not filtering is too small to see to the naked eye, the little shards you might see does not tell you anything other than your filter caught them......think of it as a dyno test for you oil filter. Problem with patch testing is that it's not normally intended for consumer or automotive filters so you need a deep understanding of filtration. 



#68
ian.r

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from what I remembered the fuel delusion is due to the ecu tune. every tuner also runs rich iirc for safety. so will there always be lots of fuel in the oil due to this?

#69
danielTRLK

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ECU tuning is actually little of the fuel dilution issue.



#70
shawnhayes

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from what I remembered the fuel delusion is due to the ecu tune. every tuner also runs rich iirc for safety. so will there always be lots of fuel in the oil due to this?

 

 

ECU tuning is actually little of the fuel dilution issue.

 

Good lean tuning has slightly reduced some of the fuel dilution on some cars.  The way the GT-R motor is ventilated on PCV system, and the hand built nature of the engine contributes a lot.  Nissan has gotten a lot better since the initial engines, and the DBA engines are WAYYYY better than the original CBA ones - they make more power, they have less fuel dilution.  They also don't shed metal like a cat with a scratching pole (which most VR/VQ motors did in the late 2000's).

 

Shawn



#71
Kevin_E

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Greetings everyone/Shawn,

 

Here's the most concurrent sample that got sent to Blackstone. It seems my copper and lead went up.

 

Car recently got it's ECU remapped.

 

Also, I just wanted to give a shot out to Daniel for all the feedback on the old samples.

 

The last sample was run with a Motul 8100 5w40 (3 quarts) and 300v 5w40 (2 quarts) and an HKS SH oil filter. This oil change it's running full 300v 5w40 with the same HKS SH oil filter.

Attached Files


Edited by Kevin_E, 15 March 2017 - 03:52 PM.

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Kevin


#72
shawnhayes

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Kevin, that's a pretty big jump in lead and copper. While a decent cocktail, for the track use, I'd suggest all 300V for the next change.

Additionally, if you're suffering from the fuel dilution that I am, maybe the diesel type oil that Daniel suggested might be better. Some guys do better with one type of oil or another. I'm willing to try his suggestion because I know what's in there he's recommending, and I have used delvac before with good results. I have been heavy tracking the car with the last three changes, so I wasn't too upset, but we'll see after the next change.

Shawn
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#73
Kevin_E

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Thanks for the feedback Shawn! Yes, the new oil is completely 300v 5w40. I'll have to reupdate when I change the oil again.


Kevin


#74
danielTRLK

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Kevin, have you modified the intake on this engine? can you check the thermal vent underneath the intake? 

 

main bearing being worked too hard, fuel dilution and not optimal oil chemistry, you're sucking in a lot of dust and it looks like rod end bearing wear on the main crank, but only one or two bearings. 

 

engine got scored on the very beginning. 

 

is this a hybrid car?

 

impossible to see further diagnostics, need more data on lab level. 



#75
shawnhayes

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And now.....

Our new arrival Daniel (from a well known company) came on the scene. I had always wanted to try their company, but the cost was a fair amount more than Blackstone, but I thought I needed to spring a little more...

GT-R engine page 1.jpg

gt-r engine page 2.jpg

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gt-r engine page 4.jpg

gt-r engine page 5.jpg

gt-r engine page 6.jpg

gt-r engine page 7.jpg

I'll let Daniel make his comments, but I'll summarize...

This engine and turbos are wearing. At 42,000 miles, mostly track, who could POSSIBLY be surprised. I don't know of a single hard track used CBA out there that has all original engine internals out there other than mine - correction - at least two so far, which makes me very happy.

She still runs like a top, gets 20mpg on the highway, and can still pass anything with stock internals and turbos that was made in 2009 and previous.

Better filtration would help, and fuel dilution elimination would help as well. Daniel also thinks that my nitration suggests something amiss with the ignition, which the O2 sensors certainly could be a problem, as well as the coil packs at this point.

But, we'll see. I'm interested in Daniels 3 micron filter and fuel dilution elimination solution, as it will help long term.

Shawn

Edited by shawnhayes, 08 May 2017 - 03:59 AM.


#76
shawnhayes

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Oh, and holy mother of Pearl - this was after 340 miles of VIR.  For gosh sakes, that's a full on endurance race for most cars.  And this is a STREET CAR.  Driven to and from the track.  I can't be disappointed.

 

Shawn


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#77
danielTRLK

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Is there any way you could get this to a shop, or do you have a scanner/tuner? I would be interested in seeing if we could get the ECU readings on the downstream O2 sensor.


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#78
shawnhayes

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Is there any way you could get this to a shop, or do you have a scanner/tuner? I would be interested in seeing if we could get the ECU readings on the downstream O2 sensor.


I have a Cobb. We've run data logs on it in the past. What parameters do you suggest?

Shawn

#79
danielTRLK

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I don't know, I'm sort of familiar with the Snap On Verus but I've always had a tech looking with and giving me direction. I've seen a lot of times, the DS O2 sensor is negative, as bad as -35 on the long term fuel trim and it won't throw a CEL. Granted this does not mean it is the case with yours. 

 

Can you run the car to operating temp and then get reading on the LTFT and STFT at idle and at 1500rpm?

 

I wonder if we could get Tony from T1 to give us professional guidance. 



#80
shawnhayes

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I don't know, I'm sort of familiar with the Snap On Verus but I've always had a tech looking with and giving me direction. I've seen a lot of times, the DS O2 sensor is negative, as bad as -35 on the long term fuel trim and it won't throw a CEL. Granted this does not mean it is the case with yours. 

 

Can you run the car to operating temp and then get reading on the LTFT and STFT at idle and at 1500rpm?

 

I wonder if we could get Tony from T1 to give us professional guidance. 

 

Can do, and can provide a datalog of such.  But, that's going to take two weeks unless it's not under load.  Car is up in the air now for maintenance - still need to fix the front lip from Dominion Raceway (I will have to re-rivet the lip, and replace the bumper supports *again* sigh).

 

Shawn






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