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GTX3582R from Alpha 9 from FBO build update

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#221
CasualObserver

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You seem to be upset, I too would be upset with a string of failures.  There are some things that I don't understand and want clarified.  Why is it that you won't take AMS up on their offer to take your car back and diagnose/rebuild it?  I must admit that it seems unlikely that they would have shipped three bad motors to you (although ill admit that anything is possible). 

 

Reading through your build thread I see that one of the motor failures also wrecked the bearing cartridges on a turbo.  That suggests to me an oil pressure issue.  Can you comment on what type of oil you were using?  Between failures did you replace the oil coolers?

 

I saw many logs of 60-130 times.  Motors being as they are, typically a poorly built motor will shred bearings very quickly under load or even idle.  It seems strange you were able to make a bunch of full power passes.  Do you have any oil pressure or logs of any other kind from the break in or runs you did?  Were there any safety trips in your log. 

 

Who are you going with for the new engine?



#222
droptopp

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Actually not upset at all. Extremely disappointed. Not easy to own up to the fact that you allowed yourself to get screwed.

I’m not even considering the 3.8 as an issue other than Martin claimed it produced too much torque, thus flexing the girdle causing the failure. That’s ridiculous as it made under 700lb ft if I remember correctly. He also told numerous times they have never had an Alpha 9 throw bearings. I guess I was the first.

New oil cooler and ancillaries on every motor. Matter of fact I’ve got $2690 into AMS oil coolers and probably buying another one which makes 4.

Oil used was what was requested or an approved equal - dominator 15x50 and sae 30 break in.

When the 4.1 decided to “get loud” on decel, oil pressure went down as I pressed on gas.

I won’t take AMS up on the offer to send them the car because I’ve missed the start of the third season with “just” their 4.1 and 4.0 issues.

The latest was their saving grace. Was supposed to be 100% no problems and no issues. Burned almost 2 quarts on break in 175-200 miles out of boost, oil puddling on the pistons and leaking out of the rear mean area.

Means it had to be dropped and pulled Martin didn’t offer to pick the car up until I said I shouldn’t have to drop and ship for a 4th time and eat those costs nor should shop have to apply the labor.

I offered to two different times ship the car to him in the fall to have him install and tune and he declined.

I just wanted the bullshit to end honestly.

Also, if AMS cared the 4.0 I just paid to have shipped and installed would have not leaked or consumed oil. I really don’t think I’m missing anything on this.

I didn’t ask for the 4.1 money back, the 3.8 money back, the consequential costs incurred along the way for them. Just for this 4.0 abomination of a motor recent garbage they shipped and he says only I ship the car.

Honestly what put me off the most was them telling me I have to send the entire car - after I paid for and funded this experiment.

Like I said, I had numerous conversations (voice calls, texts, emails, face to face visits, etc) with Martin and AMS. They all assured me this 4.0 would be perfect !!!!!

See how that went.

Also, I have very limited time to enjoy this thing. Season is super short in the northeast and compounded by the fact I travel weekly and son plays college football. So if I get 2-3 weekends with it and a couple track days and a single event, I’m happy.

Haven’t done any of that.

I’m am absolutely confident the motor has a blowback issue. Exactly the same as the 4.1. AMS obviously didn’t want this to happen but that’s two motors I can directly attribute to the issue. I was just smart enough this time around to prove it before something happened. Not sure I would have caught it if it wasn’t leaking externally as well so cudos for that.

Will be headed to T1 or TSM. Sure they will have no issue with outlining what they find.

Edited by droptopp, 22 April 2019 - 10:02 PM.

  • celsius likes this
GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#223
droptopp

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By the way, I offered Martin multiple times to pull the motor and ship it back to him. I just need a good core like I sent him and what I paid for.

Didn’t even ask for a refund at that point .....

Just want a car to drive and I don’t fit in much else.
  • celsius likes this
GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#224
CasualObserver

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Fair enough.  Why are you changing shops?  As I stated earlier it is possible that they have shipped three bad motors.  You aren't using the same shop anymore.  Why not?  Do you think they had anything to do with this?  If blobby is such an issue one possible cause is an excessively rich tune during break in.  Have they provided you with logs?



#225
droptopp

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I am using the same shop and have no plans on switching from STM. They had nothing to do with this and are caught in the middle.

To build the motor it will be done at T1 or TSM.

Again, the 3.8 should have lasted longer, but it is what it is and as I have said for years, I loved the A9.

My issue is with the 4.1 and 4.0 - both shipped to me with blow-by issues - no excuse for that.

Again why someone else is building this one.
  • celsius likes this
GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#226
droptopp

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Rich ? How does that explain blow-by? Or oil leaking out of the block, rear main, timing chain cover, etc ?

The car has stock injectors in it with a Cobb big SF intake OTS Map, O2 sensors, etc to get state inspection. I’m guessing it ain’t rich lol.

Did not even come close to any boost.

Maybe if i wasn’t made so many promises and “I will personally stand behind this 4.0” comments I wouldn’t give a shit and just eat the 25k from the next shop instead of letting people know Martin doesn’t stand behind a thing.

Like I said - told Martin I just wanted a core block and crank which I’ve paid for and provided more than once.

Edited by droptopp, 22 April 2019 - 10:13 PM.

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GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#227
celsius

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That really sucks! I’m actually astounded that you had to go through this whole ordeal...it’s terrible!

TSM Elite Prime (4125lbs w/Audiophile sound / AC, etc.)

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190MPH Roll Race @ Tx2k19


#228
Martin@amsperformance

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This is the statement I made on the vendor review thread copied here:
 
To clarify,  AMS did not work on this car, do the install, or the do tuning on it. We only built the engine(s) and shipped them out.
 
I want to state the FACTS here because it seems emotions are getting the better of people and there are assumptions being made.  As of most recently we offered to pick the customers car up for free, look into the latest issue (not knowing who or what is at fault) and fix it for free, and deliver it back for free but the customer declined this.  
 
To reiterate, we have built the engines but we have not installed nor tuned any of these engines. Here is a summary of events so everyone is aware.
 
Engine #1
Basic 3.8L build 
Customer sent in a long block for a core.  Installed in 2014 and ran well for 2.5-3 years on an alpha 9 and had only 4000-5000 miles on it according to the customer.  If you follow the thread there was plenty of racing done on this engine (1/4 mile, 60-130) on E85.  When it was sent in the main bearings were hammered.  If this engine was built incorrectly and bearing clearances out of spec it wouldn't have lasted 30 miles under load.   For main bearings to go there needs to be something drastically wrong either bearing clearance, main bore concentricity, rank flex, loss of oil pressure or oil, contaminated oil, or excessive torque.  Incorrect clearance or concentricity from error on our part would show up very quickly, almost immediately.   Again AMS did not install or tune this engine!
 
Engine #2
4.1L with a Sonny Bryant billet crankshaft
The block and main bores were still withing specification so the same block was used on this build.  This engine was installed in early 2017, tuned (again neither by AMS) and allegedly ran for 1000 miles before it also did the same thing engine #1 did.  We didn't know until after the failure but the customer upgraded to a Garrett GTX3582 turbo kit (built by his shop) on this second engine.  When we asked for data logs from any runs we were told there were none.   
At this time the customer is upset, and I can sympathize, but we can't assume where the fault lies. The customer is also upset when I tell him he has small Tomei camshafts upon inspection, he ask why didn't we sell him bigger camshafts on the engine because he was running bigger turbos.  The customer originally had us quote an Alpha 12 to go with his 2nd engine built but then decided against it because he said he was concerned with the lag.  Unbeknownst to us, he got a different turbo kit for the car, so we had no reason to recommend larger camshafts.
Again this failure which was the exact same as the first failure, main bearing wiped out.  We didn't install this engine nor did we tune it, neither were there datalogs for us to look at.  The engine was just sent to us.  We were never told this engine was burning oil like the customer is stating now in his posts.  He also mentioned to me a phone call last week, that maybe that's why his engine ran out of oil because it was burning so much of it.. hmmm?
Were all the oil lines, turbo's and turbo lines, etc cleaned from metal debris on the first engine? Oil cooler?.  We have no idea because we didn't do the work. We have a log book and build sheet for every engine we do, with measured bearing clearances, bore sizes, piston sizes, ring gaps, leakdowns, etc.
 
 
Engine #3
 
At this point I suggest going with a 4.0L non stroker to be easier on the main girdle, just in case something is going on there or he's running  a lot of torque on this engine.
I also offer to swap out the mild Tomei camshafts for our Alpha camshafts for FREE.  These are much better suited for the larger turbo he's running (that we weren't made aware of before).  I also do a billet steel main girdle cap system that we were working on with our machine shop for FREE.  That cost to me is almost $4K for the conversion and machine work alone. AMS also give the customer a FREE brand new block from Nissan.  The previous block (that the customer originally supplied as a core) went through twice with main bearing being wiped out and we didn't want to risk anything in case it was flexing.  We did the labor on this entire engine for FREE.   Even after all the free parts & labor we then split the remaining cost (not retail price) in half with the customer.  He basically received an all new 4.0L dry sleeve SB billet crank long block (with new OEM block), custom billet steel main cap system,  oil pump, pistons, bearings, with new cams, and service work done on the heads for a little more than $6000.00
 
This most recent engine was installed by the customers shop and being broken in.  After 250 miles I was told it consumed 1 quart of oil and there is some oil seeping from somewhere in the engine (not leaking on the ground but oil moisture near some covers/ream main).  A borescope was put down a cylinder and there is lots of oil pooled up on top of the piston.  The shop he has it at pulled off the intake manifold and I was told there is a lot of oil in the manifold and runners but nothing pre-throttle body.  
 At this point not knowing what is wrong I offer to pick the car up for free, fix whatever is wrong for free (not even knowing if this is our fault or not), finish break in and tune for free, and deliver it for free. The customer refuses and claims he will take it to a different place to build the engine.  
 
I'm not sure how much more fair and reasonable I could have been.  We didn't install or tune any of these engines, that is all out of our control.  The first engine lasted 2.5-3 years and then lost bearings.  Engines don't do that if they aren't built correctly due to clearances, they fail almost immediately.  This last engine I offered everything on our dime including shipping of the vehicle without even seeing what could be wrong, it was still not good enough.  I then offered his money back if we would get back to our shop (again on our dime) diagnose what was wrong, and if it was our fault I would issue a refund on this last engine.  The customer also refused that. 
 
Yes we can make mistakes, and when we do we absolutely cover it.  I have customer that can attest to that. We also have a lot of fast race cars and street cars that we built completely or just built engine for that are out there and last!   There is more to it than just building an engine. The tuning, the care, and how the engine is used all affect the longevity.  
 
 
edited for clarification up top.

Edited by Martin@amsperformance, 23 April 2019 - 05:53 PM.

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Martin Musial
President  - AMS Performance - Alpha Performance
 
ams_email_signature.png
 

 


#229
droptopp

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Martin - I would be very, very careful with the libel in the above post.

Facts - I never told you the car ran out of oil nor were you not allowed to review the logs or tuning.

Screen shot attached - if you were so concerned about tuning why did you not take me up on my offer three different times.

As I told you multiple times, your inability to comprehend this situation is absolutely amazing to me.

Now you resort to flat out lies ??? You have shown your true character.

968d4d90eac7327d1b4f33d23aa6fc98.jpg

Edited by droptopp, 22 April 2019 - 11:46 PM.

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GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#230
droptopp

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I also know for a fact I am not the only one with these issues and Martin has been made aware of them before.

I encourage others to comment and come forward, but understand how this market works.
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GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#231
droptopp

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And for the record I have not done a vendor review yet - waiting for Du Page County documents first

https://youtu.be/smYjQ8yAscA

Edited by droptopp, 23 April 2019 - 12:30 AM.

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GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#232
droptopp

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Martin / Dan you have mail

68c1693132c11616c1c15dad7872e84d.jpg
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GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#233
jbl16

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Droptopp,

Truly frustrating, Im not even sure what I would do If I were in the same situation.

Perhaps I’d take their offer and let them do the whole build in house including break in and tune. However I can certainly understand you are done with them and want to move on.

J

Edited by jbl16, 23 April 2019 - 05:54 AM.


#234
Mattson

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Hope everything works out for you but out of curiosity, When Martin offered you the following: 

 

This last engine I offered everything on our dime including shipping of the vehicle without even seeing what could be wrong, it was still not good enough.  I then offered his money back if we would get back to our shop (again on our dime) diagnose what was wrong, and if it was our fault I would issue a refund on this last engine.  The customer also refused that.

 

 

Why did you refused that?


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#235
CasualObserver

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Hope everything works out for you but out of curiosity, When Martin offered you the following: 

 

This last engine I offered everything on our dime including shipping of the vehicle without even seeing what could be wrong, it was still not good enough.  I then offered his money back if we would get back to our shop (again on our dime) diagnose what was wrong, and if it was our fault I would issue a refund on this last engine.  The customer also refused that.

 

 

Why did you refused that?

That’s what I don’t understand, seems like a generous offer.  What makes you 100% convinced that it is all 100% to blame on their motors?



#236
droptopp

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I am assuming the issue with the 4.1 and now 4.0 was not caused in malice. I already lost two seasons over it. I believe if AMS could have built a motor without leaking or blow-by, they would have. Nobody wanted this.

Hell turns my stomach sick.

Martin only offered this after I said I could no longer incur costs to pull the motor and have it shipped. I will post the emails and texts if you like.

I was told on April 9th the car would be picked up on the April 15th or 16th. I cancelled travel for my business for that week and did not hear otherwise. Tuesday came and AMS told me driver is now saying following Tuesday 23rd. I asked to have driver contact me as I blew off three meetings to meet the guy.

Driver calls says he told Dan he was not available as he was in Miami picking up a “lambo and 1926 something and headed to Chicago”. Tells me pickup could be 26th as he will be in Maine dropping off cars on the 25th.

Again, I’m on the road weekly so to bag a week complicates things for me, but to bag two and just be lied to about pickup. That’s burdensome.

April 26th means I don’t see the car until June at best. At that rate I decided time to pull the plug and that’s when all hell broke loose. Martin started blatantly making things up.

I’m being unreasonable, a pain in the ass, offered things for free, offered to build a fourth motor in parallel because they obviously know whatever they did to the rear main didn’t work, etc.

I wasn’t being any of that when I was paying and waiting for another season to pass and paying for motors and billet cranks and pistons to be pulled and shipped. When I was buying another oil cooler and another air/oil separator or dual brushless setup I was a great customer.

Was only being unreasonable when I said a 4.0 motor which was supplied to me leaks and consumes oil and that was the replacement for a 4.1 that did the same.

How dare I, the nerve of this customer ??????

The fact I pulled the plug and am sending it to someone else? That’s when Martin flipped. Spoke to him multiple times and turned into a back and forth with ill conceived logic. The “I can build a motor that goes 256 in the mile, why can’t I build a street motor” and I’m like I have no idea you tell me.

Martin offered to pull the motor and leave me with nothing but the ancillaries of the long block. I sent him a long block, this would have been the fourth time, never once did he even offer to provide me with the block and crank until I posted things on heritage, even though I asked in email, text and old school on the phone.

I offered to send him back the long block or short block or whatever he wanted and keep it all off of the forums. He chose not to go that route. The refund requested was only a fraction of the actual cost so I could buy a block and crank if it’s needed. That’s after giving AMS 5 times that easily. Pride is a dangerous thing.

Hell he offered to pull it and send it without a long block on April 19th. Lol. I paid for the head work and oil cooler and the rest of the long block multiple times. Next thing I know I’m cruising Ebay looking for a long block and cars.com for a summer car. Lol.

Well hopefully that explains it.

There was a full series of unfortunate events and Martin and AMS had every opportunity to make things right and chose not to.

I told them I sat for two seasons and he assured me and “gave me his word” they will stand behind this 4.0.

Guess he only stands behind it if he gets his way. What a joke.

a99e031a456d07d64c3db161b5366b8e.jpg

43ec55398434e8045fd4f3fa1ebf050d.jpg

Edited by droptopp, 23 April 2019 - 09:43 AM.

GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#237
Mattson

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If i was in you're situation i would try to get that deal again, sign some papers so you won't have any disagree about this and that and ship the car and see whats really wrong with it, Could be good for you if something else its wrong with the car and they will find it out for you. Best and cheapest solution i believe. 

 

If you just look at the latest GTRworld cup and see what there in house build cars performed ( Casualobserver, chicagomotorcars etc ) they sure knows how to build an engine, I have bought a lot of AMS parts and they have really been great and helped me much more than they needed (supporting wise). 



#238
Mattson

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That’s what I don’t understand, seems like a generous offer.  What makes you 100% convinced that it is all 100% to blame on their motors?

 

You're right. I would take the offer and ship  the car asap so i could get a correct diagnosis of the car. 



#239
droptopp

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So AMS is the only one that can get a correct diagnosis of the car ? Seems like an easy way to continue to bury the facts.

I’m confident the next builder will be clearly able to diagnose without having a dog in the fight.
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GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#240
Mattson

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So AMS is the only one that can get a correct diagnosis of the car ? Seems like an easy way to continue to bury the facts.

I’m confident the next builder will be clearly able to diagnose without having a dog in the fight.

 

Absolutely not the only shop to do that but if you want my objective assessment because i've been in you're shoes ( i live in SWeden btw, so its not AMS ore other gtr shop in us). I would let them have the car and diagnose it because you still have to do that with the new shop and will cost you a lot more then letting AMS diagnose it.  Really important you have everything on paper and signed it so you wont have any disagreement about what you agreed on. 


Edited by Mattson, 23 April 2019 - 08:49 AM.





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