Jump to content

Welcome to Nissan GT-R Heritage
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

GTX3582R from Alpha 9 from FBO build update

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
206 replies to this topic

#201
Cicio@TSM

Cicio@TSM

    Stage 4 Member

  • Vendors
  • 1,043 posts
  • Joined 19-December 12

I did, but it looks like I never planned for any kind of flex. In hindsight, I probably would have been better off with a girdle as opposed to a crank.

AMS and Martin specifically has been great to deal with thus far and have spent a good deal of time on why things happened.

Working together to finalize the final steps now.



That’s weird. My shop car makes over 2000hp and after a season of 190+ mph quarter mile passes I take it apart and the bearings are fine.

Stock girdle, billet crank.


Either way all that matters is the vendor is stepping up and fixing it for free. That’s awesome! Cudos to AMS
  • Tim and celsius like this

~Cicio
 
***TOP THREE TSM 1/4 MILE***
-7.37 & 198
-7.47@194
-7.59@189
***TOP THREE TSM 1/2 MILE***
-225.9 MPH
-221.3 MPH
-219.5 MPH

-OneLap of America Overall 1st Place - 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013
-TX2K13 Overall 1st Place | TX2K13 Class 2 1st Place
-Shootout 2015 Overall 1st Place & 2nd Place
-TX2K15 Class 4 2nd Place | TX2K15 Roll Race 1st Place SS
-FL2K 2015 Overall 1st Place
-TSM ELITE Plus Stock Frames @ 7.98@169
-Standing Half Mile Stock Frame Turbo Record @ 209 TSM ELITE

TopSpeedForumGTR.jpg
Call: 678-297-7770
cicio@topspeedmotorsports.com
TopSpeedMotorsports.com
**AWD Dyno Tuning
**Parts, Sales, Service


#202
Martin@amsperformance

Martin@amsperformance

    Stock

  • OEM Member
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • Joined 15-March 13
  • LocationWest Chicago, IL

No I'm not saying it's operator error as in Dropptop is actually doing something wrong.   Remember the VR38 runs at 480-600hp(nismo), and they have a 5yr 60K mile powertrain warranty.  But if you launch the car excessively or if they can show excessive abuse they can void your warranty.   Even at that point there are warranty issues because nobody is perfect, from assembly, to suppliers of pars, etc. 

 

The failure mode was bearing wear, but why is unclear.  Is it due to oil dilution from E85 and thus lower viscocity? Was the torque too high causing flexing and the crank journal making metal to bearing contact? Was the girdle flexing?  I'll get pics later today but the girdle was flexing, the cast iron main caps where separating pretty badly from the AL casting around it.  We see that typically when an engine is making lots of torque.  Was it bad bearings?  probably not, no bearing in the world will last if the mains contact the bearing surface under significant load.  The oil film prevents that. But if the oil viscocity is compromised, or the block flex lets the crank journal touch a bearing surface....

 

As far as spec'ing the components, we use a factory block and factory girdle.  The crank is Bryant racing crankshaft, the same as other competitors use.   Also if bearing clearances aren't right, it shows up pretty darn quick, like in the break in period or first uses under load. We build well over 100 engine per year and with our process documentation and built in checks there are virtually zero assembly errors.

 

Just because it's a built engine doesn't mean it will hold up to X amount of HP for 24K+ miles.  We're still working with many OEM parts.  If you look at HP per displacement you can see that big HP OEM cars have pretty large engines, they do this because you can't change physics!  An 8.0L buggati Grand sport Vitesse makes 1184hp, that's  148hp per liter.. A stock GTR makes 126 to 157 hp per liter.  See the similarities?   A Mclaren 720S , which is very technologically advanced, costs over $300k, , and has a 3 yr, warranty, makes 177hp/L.   Let's even take a basic Alpha9, which is about 1050hp at the crank on E85, we're at 276hp/L on a block/girdle that was designed for 157max on their NISMO!  that's 75% more power.   But  really we should be looking at Torque, because that is what causes cylinder pressure and stress on components.  So a 2018 NISMO makes 481 ft-lbs.  or 126 ft/lbs per liter.   A std. GTR makes 467 ft-lbs, only 14ft-lbs less than a NISMO, why?   An alpha 9 on E85 typically makes over 1000 ft-lbs of torque.  So now we're 263 ft-lbs/L, which is 108% or more than double over a stock NISMO.   So we have a factory block that is designed to handle 467ft-lbs - 481 ft-lbs now handling over 1000ft-lbs.  We're not miracle workers over here, the foundation of the engine is still stock Nissan, hence why we made a billet block for the really high HP/TQ stuff.   

 

This is the path of modifying a vehicle, there are risks with using OEM parts and also pushing high output/torque per liter.   If we were building engines 3.8-4.0L V6's to handle 1500hp and 1000 ft-lbs of torque with 24K mile warranty, what do you think that would cost?  Engineering from ground up?   

 

here is a race engine used in the current Indy Light series from AER, which are high end engines..  https://www.aerltd.c...nes/project-63/

 a 2.0L 4 cylinder making 368 ft-lbs turbocharged. no maintenance for a full season.  -  184 ft-lb/L, not much more than the stock engines we looked at above!  And these engines are specifically engineered from the ground up for that power and torque and they are big $$!

 

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to give some perspective on modifying the VR38 in general and the assumption of them being 'bulletproof' if you build them.  Most of the time it works out great, but there is no guarantee.  We've built and tuned plenty of Ronin package GTR, which are 4.1L strokers and Alpha 9, never had one issue with them that we built here.  One particular customer comes to mind, we built him a Ronin package in early 2014 and he runs flex fuel, races the car and drives it, still running strong to this day.  

 

Any questions I'd be happy to answer to them.

 

best,

 

So, you’re saying the common variable is the customer and therefore it’s operator error? Are there any other common variables?

Not disagreeing with what you’re saying, just shows how amazing it is that auto manufacturers can build thousands of cars that go hundreds of thousands of miles on a Daily basis. Imagine all the variables at play there. Who knows if anyone changes their oil at all during warranty, or if any cars are ever revved to the max. Amazing the manufacturers can stand behind it all.....

1500 and 3500 miles just seems quite low....do you approve that the components were properly spec’ed for the power levels produced?


  • BAZ007, socalaviator and Mattson like this
Martin Musial
President  - AMS Performance - Alpha Performance
 
ams_email_signature.png
 

 


#203
Martin@amsperformance

Martin@amsperformance

    Stock

  • OEM Member
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
  • Joined 15-March 13
  • LocationWest Chicago, IL

Cicio, 

 

yes it is weird, because we've built many engines that have taken HP and TQ thrown at them without issues, so figuring out why these two engines in particular (two different blocks) to one customer are having issues is an interesting one.  Again we just supplied the long blocks, we didn't install or tune them. 

 

We ran OB's Alpha Queen at a few events (213mph traps), then roll raced it at TX2K giving it well over 2400whp @ 228mph traps, (which UGR claimed to make over 3000hp to get 229 out of a lambo) and then brought it back to pound it on the dyno with 10 runs ranging from 2400whp to over 2800whp and over 2000ft-lbs of torque.   We took it apart to see how everything looked.  Bearings looked great!  This is the same crank and bearing we used in building Dropptops' engine FYI.    The main difference here being a billet block vs. stock block and also we maintained and oversaw the use of the car.

 

Again this is racing and modifying your car, it's not a path that is 100% guarantee as you well know.  We're working with what we have and do the best that we can do to pick components, prep, and build these engines to live under high abuse. 

 

thanks,

 

That’s weird. My shop car makes over 2000hp and after a season of 190+ mph quarter mile passes I take it apart and the bearings are fine.

Stock girdle, billet crank.


Either way all that matters is the vendor is stepping up and fixing it for free. That’s awesome! Cudos to AMS


  • BAZ007 likes this
Martin Musial
President  - AMS Performance - Alpha Performance
 
ams_email_signature.png
 

 


#204
BAZ007

BAZ007

    Stage 4 Member

  • Member
  • 834 posts
  • Joined 24-January 15

Great explanation Martin, I hope you find the best path forward for your customer and company regarding this issue.


  • Mattson likes this

#205
droptopp

droptopp

    Stage 4 Member

  • Member
  • 1,335 posts
  • Joined 16-February 14
Never posted an update to this, but Martin and the team at AMS recently shipped out a new block big bore 4.0 with some custom billet work.

Once the thaw comes will get an inspection sticker and break in miles before eventually getting things setup properly.

Should be a fun 2019

https://youtu.be/k_mx4WJ8XWo
2fde8992f4a90d9858251d7d88c90d0e.jpg
  • Tim, gtrnut, 7racer and 1 other like this
GTX3582R built and tuned by STM, AMS 4.1, Omega billet crank, Alpha Cams, STM DP, MP, 4 STM Titanium custom exhaust, STM Race FMIC 22x18x4.5, full 3" piping, ID 2000, Sheptrans OneK drop gears, DS axles, E85, Advan GT 10/12 285/315 R888 / MT ET 18x10/12 TE37 Saga MT ET SS 275/245.
Heartbreaker Mustang 1186 E70 low boost. Dynojet 1350 +/- 60-130 3.5 seconds. 100-150 3.4 seconds.

#206
Tim

Tim

    FYI Gators eat the bones

  • OEM Member
  • 9,227 posts
  • Joined 06-December 12
  • LocationBlue water and White Sandy Beaches
I’m glad to hear this 👍👌🏻👋🏻
  • droptopp and Formidable like this
post-273-0-31146100-1438786356.jpg

#207
tg07

tg07

    Stage 2.5 Member

  • Member
  • 253 posts
  • Joined 02-November 16
  • LocationWisconsin
Great to hear! Looking forward to seeing some videos of the beast at work.
  • Tim and Formidable like this

Alpha 7





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users