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Turbo Tech 101 and 102

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#21
shawnhayes

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It's pretty cool that Bill is sharing all this information, it took me a long time to understand more boost does not automatically mean more power. Bill has done a great job of explaining this to me and even proving it to me with my own car on the dyno.

Tim it would be great if this thread could be pinned...so much good information here, This should be a must read for anyone looking to upgrade turbo's


Agreed, so many many people just don't understand that more air + more fuel = more power, and that boost is a dependent variable rather than an independent one.

Thanks Bill!

Shawn

#22
ian.r

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Two pdfs that may also help on the subject.

Maximum boost by Corky Bell
http://www.sendspace.com/file/8420ej

Turbo tech 103 - expert (attached)

Attached Files



#23
elp_jc

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Awesome info BIll and Ian. This is my first turbo car, and never delved into turbo engines until now. Fascinating. Also a lot more complex than I imagined, but as an engineer, love reading and learning about engines. Thank you both for your awesome contributions :thumbsup: .


2015 white/black GT-R Premium. MODS: JDM clear front markers, radiator screens, HKS resonated MP, BlendMount V1 mount w/MirrorTap, 3M window tint, rear/front debadge, full LEDs (except turn-signals), AutoTecknic matte black paddles, OEM car cover, Gold-Plug magnetic oil drain plug, 370Z jack and rod, Stop'nGo flat tire repair kit, Dynaplug compressor, Rays steel chrome lug/locknut set, Hawk HPS brake pads, SecondSkin insulation under rear seats and trunk.


#24
Steve Theodore

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Tremendous thread, thank you Bill!  B)


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2014 Nissan GT-R

- Kline Inconel grade 625 full exhaust, ForgeLine GA1R Open-Lug Cap wheels

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1993.5 Toyota Supra TT hardtop

- TwinsTurbo build, BW EFR 7163 twins, 1175 whp


#25
Extreme Tuners

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Turbo Technology 102...

 

Going to highlight a few topics that are most relevant to GT-R guys. 

 

Back-pressure. 

 

Back-pressure is a measure of restriction in a turbo system and efficiency.   Exhaust has a maximum air speed.  That speed is very close to the speed of sound (its actually slightly above it)  What happens is as boost and airflow goes up, the exhaust speed goes up.  The smaller the turbo system, the higher the speed will be with the same volume of air.  Next what happens is that air naturally wants to go a certain speed (the speed that it exited the engine).  Now its being forced into a much smaller opening, the air speed goes up, and a restriction begins.  Now that high air speed is great for turbo feel and spool.  But it is not good for back pressure related restriction.  Once the exhaust cant go any faster, pressure builds to force it out (and it also forces it BACK IN a motor through reversion, and contaminates the incoming charge of air)

 

In general the Backpressure measurement is generally expressed as a pressure ratio between manifold pressure (AKA boost pressure in the engine) and Turbo pressure in the turbine housing.  In a Stock Turbo GT-R, this is actually fairly high, at relatively low boost pressures.  At 15psi of boost in a stock turbo GT-R (at lets say 7000rpms) the back pressure is above 35psi. It is in the 2.4-2.5 to 1 range.      In general the higher the rpm (or airflow of the motor) the higher the back pressure will be.  

 

So if you want to optimize an RPM range, turbo housing sizes play a big role, and effect back pressure directly.  If you want a drag racing motor, going to a GT35 with a 1.06 AR might make more sense (Ratio of inlet and turbine size, the higher the AR Ratio, the more flow the housing has in a given size)

 

With a stock manifold GT-R you are stuck with the size of the inlet and turbo nozzle.  So when you go bigger the ratio changes actually smaller.  Since the manifold did not change and the turbine got bigger.  A typical AR Ratio for a stock frame turbo is around .40 AR (or very small), This is great for spool, but not great for pressure build up and subsequent heat build up. 

 

NOT all AR ratios are the same.  Since its a ratio, if both numbers change, you can maintain a Ratio, but have a different size and flow.  Lets take for example a VBand housing for a HTA3794 (67 Inducer Compressor, 65mm Exducer turbine)  And compare that to a PTE 6766 T4 housing.  

Lets say both have the Same AR Ratio, but since the PTE T4 housing is larger in both measurements, it has much higher flow and much lower back pressure, and will make a good amount more power.  (And require cutting the frame to fit them LOL)

 

The other BIG topic with back pressure is Camshafts.  If you change how an engine pumps air, how long the valves are open, how long they are overlapped, etc you can effect back pressure directly.  Also RPM range and boost effect back pressure a lot too.  

 

A lot of guys think I am a miracle worker when I retune a car with lower boost, lower timing, richer AFR, and make more power and or go faster at the track.  It is mostly the understanding of back pressure that is the key here, and its effects on how an engine does work.  

 

I am looking for the Goldilocks number, of maximum boost with minimum back pressure. 

 

Ok well thats back pressure.  

 

When guys refer to "Billet wheels" in a turbo they are referring to the compressor wheels.  Its "Technically" a Machined Forged Billet compressor wheel.

 

By going billet, it allows to change the blade design, blade pitch, number of blades, wheel height, hub thickness, Curve and wheel dimensions.  These are all great things and allows a small batch change (its cost effective to make as little as 10 forged billet wheels at a time)  

 

For example, On my billet wheels, I do custom dimensions and wheel height, and custom hub thickness. You can notice in this photo, the bottom is thinner, the wheel is taller and thinner, the extended tips are wider.  

 

attachicon.gifGTXVS.jpg

 

This is something a guy like me can do.  The wheel on the left is made by garrett a HUGE company, and because of modern technology a little guy like me can make something that can compete with them.  (all be it on a MUCH smaller scale)

 

 

That same type of technology, small production, optimized for a certain size, engine, or even camshaft can be applied to the turbine wheel as well.  As far as I know I am the 1st GT-R "Tuner" to put a "Billet" Forged Inconel material turbine in a GT-R.

attachicon.gifTurbine.jpg

 

This allows me to optimize blade height, blade dimensions, hub dimensions, Number of blades ect.  So I can make the perfect turbine for the application.  This is an even lower volume type of operation because of the machine time involved.   

 

Any turbine wheel from a large manufacture is going to be cast.  The costs involved in doing a machined turbine are relatively high, and the break even point on doing a casting is as little as 25pc.  So this is a very low production method of manufacturing, but it does allow for designs that cannot be cast.  

Hello to all the GTR heritage community.

 

Bill@Sir, we would like to not use our products and pics unless we agree. Also we don't like saying our products and R&D is made from you. If you want to keep showing our pics and products you must say to the community to who belongs. it's not good someone else get benefit from our job.

Also you have remove from the pics our logo. Please use our Extreme Tuners logo and refer to us as the builder and designer and manufacturer.

The pic u use was stolen from our FB page when we upload it 19th 2013. And also our tech information's and R&D.

here is the original one.

https://www.facebook...?type=3

https://www.facebook...427658370605629

https://www.facebook...430076157030517

 

 

thank you. 


extreme tuners 


#26
MMC Racing

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Hello to all the GTR heritage community.

 

Bill@Sir, we would like to not use our products and pics unless we agree. Also we don't like saying our products and R&D is made from you. If you want to keep showing our pics and products you must say to the community to who belongs. it's not good someone else get benefit from our job.

Also you have remove from the pics our logo. Please use our Extreme Tuners logo and refer to us as the builder and designer and manufacturer.

The pic u use was stolen from our FB page when we upload it 19th 2013. And also our tech information's and R&D.

here is the original one.

https://www.facebook...?type=3

https://www.facebook...427658370605629

https://www.facebook...430076157030517

 

 

thank you. 

Joined a forum and bumped a 2 year old thread for some petty bullshit?


  • Dan_585 likes this

2015 GT-R Deep Blue Pearl Premium
Linney Tuning, SD Kit, EFR Turbos, AWD Controller, Throttle Bodies, Fuel Rails | Ecutek BT | ID1700x injectors | SBD Intakes

Shep 1K | T1 Trans Brace | Visconti Flex Fuel, Fuel Basket with dual 485, Hardwire Kit | Buschur Race Intercooler, Pro Catch Can

AMS built short block

2016 Mustang GT
Procharger Stage 2 | nGauge | Lund Tuning | Long Tube Headers


#27
2highpsi

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Hello to all the GTR heritage community.

 

Bill@Sir, we would like to not use our products and pics unless we agree. Also we don't like saying our products and R&D is made from you. If you want to keep showing our pics and products you must say to the community to who belongs. it's not good someone else get benefit from our job.

Also you have remove from the pics our logo. Please use our Extreme Tuners logo and refer to us as the builder and designer and manufacturer.

The pic u use was stolen from our FB page when we upload it 19th 2013. And also our tech information's and R&D.

here is the original one.

https://www.facebook...?type=3

https://www.facebook...427658370605629

https://www.facebook...430076157030517

 

 

thank you. 

 

 

Aren't you the guys that pretend to have a 2000hp Evo that revs to 15k RPMs?


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#28
ian.r

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extreme tuners are scammers and full of bs.

#29
shawnhayes

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Hello to all the GTR heritage community.

 

Bill@Sir, we would like to not use our products and pics unless we agree. Also we don't like saying our products and R&D is made from you. If you want to keep showing our pics and products you must say to the community to who belongs. it's not good someone else get benefit from our job.

Also you have remove from the pics our logo. Please use our Extreme Tuners logo and refer to us as the builder and designer and manufacturer.

The pic u use was stolen from our FB page when we upload it 19th 2013. And also our tech information's and R&D.

here is the original one.

https://www.facebook...?type=3

https://www.facebook...427658370605629

https://www.facebook...430076157030517

 

 

thank you. 

 

#1 - English.  It's the agreed upon language for this board.  Can't use it?  Go away.

#2 - the day that Bill steals from your FB page is the day that the world ends.  There is NO RESEMBLENCE between your pic and Bill's, unless you're blind

#3 - you have already been discredited in the past http://www.evolution...o-build-68.html

 

You don't belong here.  If you wanna stay and let us show how incompetent you are, be my guest.  I'd suggest moving on.

 

Shawn


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#30
Bill@SiR

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Hello to all the GTR heritage community.

 

Bill@Sir, we would like to not use our products and pics unless we agree. Also we don't like saying our products and R&D is made from you. If you want to keep showing our pics and products you must say to the community to who belongs. it's not good someone else get benefit from our job.

Also you have remove from the pics our logo. Please use our Extreme Tuners logo and refer to us as the builder and designer and manufacturer.

The pic u use was stolen from our FB page when we upload it 19th 2013. And also our tech information's and R&D.

here is the original one.

https://www.facebook...?type=3

https://www.facebook...427658370605629

https://www.facebook...430076157030517

 

 

thank you. 

 

 

OK

 

To me here is the bottom line.  

 

You claim this is your R&D and I am stealing it from you.  We can both claim we were first, (I did a thin blade GTX wheel for a GT42 in 2009).  The fact of the matter is your supplier is the same as my supplier for those wheels and in some cases the same turbo suppliers.  

 

I don't claim to engineer in house, I don't claim to manufacture in house.  

 

You are doing the same thing as me, ordering a wheel to your specification.  X thickness, X Width, X Height etc...  And in some cases, like the turbo you posted a photo of.  Happens to be from my same supplier in Miami, to the same spec as me.   I did my first GT-R turbo in 2010.  And YOUR photo was the 2nd one you sourced from that supplier.  

 

I can keep going, but its just banter.  Did I use 1 of your Photos as an example, YES.   As are a few other photos (One from AMS, one From my turbine supplier's website, One from Google...) 

 

Its a technical article on a forum, its NOT an SAE article.   Since you took offense to it, Im happy to go replace that photo of the SAME THING I have here.  But the technical data and R&D, thats sales information from the supplier, NOT your R&D. 

 

If you truly want to get into the GT-R market, I welcome it, and wish you well.  

 

In the Stock Manifold GT-R Market. My turbos have made the most power, gone the fastest trap speed and did so first. That is not up for debate.  

 

Part of R&D is testing.  I see photos, I don't see results. 


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#31
KrieGTR

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OK

To me here is the bottom line.

You claim this is your R&D and I am stealing it from you. We can both claim we were first, (I did a thin blade GTX wheel for a GT42 in 2009). The fact of the matter is your supplier is the same as my supplier for those wheels and in some cases the same turbo suppliers.

I don't claim to engineer in house, I don't claim to manufacture in house.

You are doing the same thing as me, ordering a wheel to your specification. X thickness, X Width, X Height etc... And in some cases, like the turbo you posted a photo of. Happens to be from my same supplier in Miami, to the same spec as me. I did my first GT-R turbo in 2010. And YOUR photo was the 2nd one you sourced from that supplier.

I can keep going, but its just banter. Did I use 1 of your Photos as an example, YES. As are a few other photos (One from AMS, one From my turbine supplier's website, One from Google...)

Its a technical article on a forum, its NOT an SAE article. Since you took offense to it, Im happy to go replace that photo of the SAME THING I have here. But the technical data and R&D, thats sales information from the supplier, NOT your R&D.

If you truly want to get into the GT-R market, I welcome it, and wish you well.

In the Stock Manifold GT-R Market. My turbos have made the most power, gone the fastest trap speed and did so first. That is not up for debate.

Part of R&D is testing. I see photos, I don't see results.


Boom, Mic drop!!!!!!
  • Tim likes this
09' SS GTR BPU

#32
shawnhayes

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#2 - the day that Bill steals from your FB page is the day that the world ends.  There is NO RESEMBLENCE between your pic and Bill's, unless you're blind

 

 

 

 Did I use 1 of your Photos as an example, YES.  

 

Okay, I thought I looked at ALL of those pictures, and I didn't see one that looked the same?  What the heck did I miss?

 

Shawn



#33
Tim

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Boom, Mic drop!!!!!!


I think he just drop kicked it
post-273-0-31146100-1438786356.jpg

#34
Doober75

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Am I the only one who kinda hoped they stuck around lol? I'd love to see them try to pull the same bs on this board as they do with the evo market.

#35
2highpsi

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I was waiting for them to try and say their GTR made 4000hp

Then move the needle on the tach up a few thousand RPM, and show a sped up video of the car accelerating.

Then go to the track and run times and traps consistent with cars that have less than half the alleged horsepower.

*sips tea
But that's none of my business
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2014 Deep Blue Pearl Track Edition GT-R Alpha 7+  #80 of 160


#36
Extreme Tuners

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Bill,

 

we are the manufacturers and designers. We own a 3million cnc facility to make automotive high quality parts. As you might have see to our FB page you can see those built from scratch.

As for stock frame units T1 made before many years and before any stock frame unit appears on the market +900awhp with our 11blade units showing on our page.

We have plenty of customers running them <1000awhp from these stock units as are the most powerfully units on the market since 2010.


extreme tuners 


#37
Buschur Racing

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I think he just drop kicked it


You should ban extreme shit heads from this forum....they are about the worst pieces of shit I've ever seen in the auto industry.
  • ian.r and 2highpsi like this

www.buschurracing.com
 

BR160 package, stock turbofolds, 8.33@168.68 mph, E80 fuel.  

BR160 package, stock turbofolds, 8.74@160.08 mph, 93 octane.

Standing 1/2 mile 199.29 mph

 

COBB TUNING DEALER AND PRO TUNER

BUSCHUR RACING on FACEBOOK

BR SHOOTOUT on FACEBOOK


#38
MMC Racing

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You should ban extreme shit heads from this forum....they are about the worst pieces of shit I've ever seen in the auto industry.

 

That would be very GTRLIFE-like


2015 GT-R Deep Blue Pearl Premium
Linney Tuning, SD Kit, EFR Turbos, AWD Controller, Throttle Bodies, Fuel Rails | Ecutek BT | ID1700x injectors | SBD Intakes

Shep 1K | T1 Trans Brace | Visconti Flex Fuel, Fuel Basket with dual 485, Hardwire Kit | Buschur Race Intercooler, Pro Catch Can

AMS built short block

2016 Mustang GT
Procharger Stage 2 | nGauge | Lund Tuning | Long Tube Headers


#39
Buschur Racing

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That would be very GTRLIFE-like

 

Others have been banned from here......these guys are scum.


www.buschurracing.com
 

BR160 package, stock turbofolds, 8.33@168.68 mph, E80 fuel.  

BR160 package, stock turbofolds, 8.74@160.08 mph, 93 octane.

Standing 1/2 mile 199.29 mph

 

COBB TUNING DEALER AND PRO TUNER

BUSCHUR RACING on FACEBOOK

BR SHOOTOUT on FACEBOOK


#40
ian.r

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I agree with the 2nd part but don't see any reason to ban. At least not atm. Besides customers should be doing there research and due diligence in choosing a vendor and extreme tuners is one to avoid just like sbd and others.




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